David Laroche : Hello, Achievers. Today I am with a new guest. He's Andrew Warner, he's with me to answer my questions. You will love this interview. He's the CEO of Mixergy. He meets a lot of amazing and awesome people and I'm very glad to ask you a lot of questions because I will learn how to ask better question, what is a common points of the greatest people in this planet. So follow this interview, you will love it. I promise you. Hello, Andrew.
Andrew Warner : Hey, good to see you here.
David Laroche : How are you today?
Andrew Warner : I am feeling really all charged up. You've got this whole setup over here. Usually I do my interviews over video Skype. You're making me feel like a celebrity!
David Laroche : Yes, you are a celebrity for me.
Andrew Warner : Thank you.
David Laroche : Let's start with who you are. To explain who you are.
Andrew Warner : I run a site called Mixergy where proven entrepreneurs teach other entrepreneurs how to build successful businesses, and the reason we do it is because we have a deep need to build something and leave a legacy. That's the message behind Mixergy. People who want to build something great, leave a legacy, are gonna learn from those who have already done it, and that's the idea.
David Laroche : And how many interviews did you…?
Andrew Warner : By the time you publish this, I'll bet we'll be at 1,000.
David Laroche : Wow.
Andrew Warner : Yes.
David Laroche : And every of these interviews were done with you?
Andrew Warner : They were. Every single one of them done just by me, but what I do have is a pre-interviewer who talks to my guests beforehand to pull out some stories from them.
David Laroche : Okay, and can you tell us a few names you love to interview to impress them, maybe?
Andrew Warner : You know, one of my first ones was Seth Godin. For years I read his books…
David Laroche : He was my first one, also.
Andrew Warner : Was he? He is so helpful. I used to read his books as I was building my first company and then I emailed him and he emailed me back within, like, minutes. I don't know how Seth does it! And so I kept connecting with him and then when it was time for me to do an interview I said, “Would you do an interview with me?” But there're smaller, or not smaller, but lesser known entrepreneurs who I think are in many ways even more inspiring. Like the other day I interviewed the founder of a site called Magoosh. They are doing incredibly well, started out with nothing but an idea for how to do test prep. The first idea failed and then they adjusted and adjusted and today they've got a company with 20 employees, fully cash flow positive, and it's a phenomenal success story that people don't usually hear about.
David Laroche : So Seth Godin?
Andrew Warner : Yes.
David Laroche : You learned what from…
Andrew Warner : Let me ask you this, by the way. You're a very good looking guy, great accent, if I had all this going on for me I would never be in entrepreneurship! I feel like one of the reasons why I'm an entrepreneur is because I didn't look like you, I didn't have your girlfriend growing up, I see her, I didn't have your accent and your ability to communicate. And I used to sit around as a teenager going, “My world is either going to be a failure or I have to do something to make it big.” And the something I chose at first was music. I was gonna be a rock star. I can't sing, I can't play the guitar, that didn't work. I said, “Okay, what can a guy who has no talent, can't sing, and only has determination do?” And it was entrepreneurship. And so I started reading about business. I started really educating myself, firing myself up, planning, and then I launched my company and it failed, which in France, you told me, I would have been a failure for because they don't forgive failure. My business failed and then I got back on and I worked and it and I worked at it because I had nothing else going on for me until that business, that first one, was a success.
David Laroche : Yeah. I would love to know, because you've met a lot of people…
Andrew Warner : Does it make you feel uncomfortable for me to point out how good you look? I'm not coming on to you, but I feel like we have to address the real things behind business. There is a determination. I believe a lot of entrepreneurs have something that they feel they are missing, and the only way to overcome it, the only way to compensate for it, is to fight through business. [[00:04:04]] Because this is one of the few places where if you have the energy, if you're willing to learn, if you're willing to put in the time, that you can basically make anything of yourself.
David Laroche : I think so.
Andrew Warner : Right?
David Laroche : Yes.
Andrew Warner : And I'm going to say…I keep interrupting you but there's so much that I have to say. I'll let you ask your questions, though. I should be a little bit nicer as a guest.
David Laroche : I would love to know, but you started to answer. What did you learn from this global experience?
Andrew Warner : One of the things that I learned is the…so I had this successful company and I thought I knew everything, and then I had another company that didn't do so well and I thought I don't know anything. And that's what led me to do Mixergy as an interview site. And I started doing these interviews to figure out what mistake I made in the past with this business that didn't go so well and how I could avoid it, and one of the things that I realized was when I built that second company, I just built it based on what I thought people would want. I didn't ask them, I didn't test, I didn't do any of it. I had they money to pay for developers, I paid for developers. I had the money to pay for parties, I paid for parties. I did it and it was all on my own, and I failed on my own because I never got feedback. One of the things that I've learned is before you even create anything, go and get feedback. So remember I told you about this guy, unheard-of entrepreneur essentially, who runs a company called Magoosh. He did the same thing on a smaller scale. He spent $10,000 to create a test prep site, no one cared for it. I asked him, “Why? You put in all this time and money!” He goes, “I thought I knew how to create test prep sites. I was a business school student and I was creating a test prep site for people who want to learn how to be business school students. Who want to take the test to be business school students. And what I didn't realize was my…” He said his idea was for students to learn from each other, and he said, “No student wants to learn from another student. They want to learn from someone who's higher up, who gets it more than they do.” And so he started talking to customers and building it with them. His first version was nothing but a sketch on PowerPoint, and he took that to people and then he got feedback, and then he developed and developed and developed. [[00:06:01]] Does that make sense? So that I've seen over and over and over again. People who've made the same mistake that I did.
David Laroche : So, one of your mistake was to not test and not to learn your customers–
Andrew Warner : Yes.
David Laroche : …about what they want?
Andrew Warner : Yes.
David Laroche : Do you have another mistake you did and something you learned from all this amazing experience?
Andrew Warner : Yeah. I talk too much, and I could see it actually in this interview. I like to just go ba ba ba ba ba! I know and I have so much to say and that doesn't really work in an interview, and after doing maybe 50 of them I started to learn that it's not about me talking. I have to learn to shut up, I have to ask a question and really learn to accept the answer that people give me. And that's been a challenge, as you can see right here with you.
David Laroche : Why and how did you make this change?
Andrew Warner : I forget the actual question, but I remember asking Rand Fishkin, who runs Moz, something and making an assumption, and he came back and he said, “Well you can't assume that.” And he pushed back on me and I said, “You know, you're right.” And I think at that moment I understood that I've got to listen to what people are saying more and look for evidence in the world that doesn't jive with what I believe. And it's a hard thing to do.
David Laroche : And, for example, how can I know if I listen to people?
Andrew Warner : If you find yourself being wrong sometimes. That right now you ask me what is it that I see in all my interviews that's a commonality, and I told you it's listening to customers and users before you build it and then building with them. If I were to have every single interview confirm that that is the absolute truth, I think that would be an indication that I wasn't really listening or I was only talking to people who confirm my world view. The way that I can really be aware that I am listening is to hear occasionally someone say, “Nah, that's not the way it worked for me.”
David Laroche : Okay. So I'm not directing the interview to listen to what I want to listen?
Andrew Warner : Yeah. To hear things that don't jive with your world view is an indication that you are really listening.
David Laroche : Okay, it's great.
Andrew Warner : Do you have this challenge, by the way? Do you mind if I turn the interview on you? Do you, you sometimes feel like you want to impose your world view?
David Laroche : Yeah, I think sometimes I did that. Sometimes I was truly listening and I saw a difference when I edited the video.
Andrew Warner : Ah, yes. That's another time, right. I see myself ask a question, get an answer, and blow past it because I'm imposing my own answer.
David Laroche : Yeah. And sometimes I can remember that I felt that during the interview. To not listen and focus on what I want to hear.
Andrew Warner : Let me ask you this. When I asked you earlier, or when I said earlier that I think there are a lot of entrepreneurs who have this missing hole in themselves and they're gonna work hard to overcome it and they channel that energy towards business, did any of that resonate with you? Do you feel like you have that?
David Laroche : Yeah.
Andrew Warner : What was it for you?
David Laroche : I was shy.
Andrew Warner : You were shy?
David Laroche : Yeah.
Andrew Warner : Okay.
David Laroche : I was shy and I had some…a lot of difficulties to speak with people and to be confident. That's why I'm helping today people to be confident and to speak.
Andrew Warner : And you're an incredible speaker. I saw your French video on YouTube. Even with the subtitles, I could tell that you were working that room well. So you were shy? How old were you before you had your first girlfriend?
David Laroche : Eighteen.
Andrew Warner : Eighteen?
David Laroche : Eighteen, 19.
Andrew Warner : You mean I, with these looks, beat you with that look? I had my first real girlfriend maybe 14, but it was not a great relationship. But 17 was a good relationship. Wow. See? I would walk around after…If I…In my earlier years, I would have walked out of this interview not having asked you this and assumed that everything must have worked out great for David and I would have been wrong. Wow. All right. So now doing interviews like this, building your speaking business, helping other people, does that feel like your way of compensating and undoing this shy childhood that you had?
David Laroche : Yeah, I think so.
Andrew Warner : Okay.
David Laroche : I've happy to help people to know how they can break through that.
Andrew Warner : I get it.
David Laroche : And I love to learn from people. In fact, I started to do interviews because I didn't know how to succeed and I was reading [inaudible 00:10:23] and I started to think, “I can do the same.” I would love to know, what are the common traits the people you interview has? What they are that others don't.
Andrew Warner : One thing that I admire about them is this sense that I will sometimes ask them about something that should have been painful, that they should have…well, I'll give you an example. I talked to one entrepreneur about all the times that he was turned down by investors when he went out for funding, and I said, “Wasn't that depressing? Didn't that make you feel like you were nothing?” And he said, “Oh no, Andrew. I wrote a spreadsheet that I shared with my co-founder with a list of all the investors who did not invest in us, so that one day when we succeeded I could say look at the list of all the people who missed out.” The interesting thing to me about that is that's an experience that many people have. They bring an idea into the world and people who are more experienced than them say, “No, no, no, that's a bad…”
David Laroche : [XXX]
Andrew Warner : Right? It will not work. And then in their heads they keep thinking, “This is too small. Why did I get into it?” Well when they're pitching other investors or customers, they think, “Well this is a bad pitch. Maybe I shouldn't be doing this. Maybe I shouldn't even pitch again. Maybe I should go and try another idea.” Same experience, they would have taken it to the bottom. He took that experience and found a way to turn it so that it allows him to go to the top. That's a distinction that's really impressive, and I see it so many times in my interviews.
David Laroche : So to sum up, do you think you don't have to listen to people? Or do you think you have to create your own perception? [[00:12:00]] Yeah. How can we develop the same trait?
Andrew Warner : I see what you mean. If you would have never listened to anyone and just said, “Okay, all these people are telling me there's something wrong, I'm not gonna listen to anybody. I'm not gonna listen to investors, I'm not gonna listen to my customers, I'm not gonna listen to my co-founders.” You obviously would have…well, not obviously, you would have likely not done anything well and not gone anywhere. But it's choosing what you accept. How many times do you have a thought in your head that you don't even want in there? I walked in here and I saw all this equipment that you had. I could have walked in thinking, “What if I bomb? What if he spends all this time setting up his video cameras and I stink so badly that he regrets even setting it up?” What if I walk in here and go, “Oh, for me? Really? I didn't do anything nearly big enough to deserve to be on camera,” and walked in with that attitude? You're experienced. Could you pick up on if that was going on in my head? Could you pick up on that? Right? The person who's watching us is experienced enough in humanity to know if they would have seen me walk in with this insecurity, would have said, “This guy…I shouldn't be watching.” What I said wouldn't have resonated, wouldn't have been as powerful. They wouldn't be listening this far. And so you pick the thoughts in your head, and what's interesting is that he picked the thoughts in his head. That I want to pick the thoughts in my head. And my guess is, having studied you a little bit, that you pick the thoughts that you want in your head.
David Laroche : Okay, so it's the first thing, you see other things. If we take three great, what could be the second one?
Andrew Warner : Okay, here's another one that's interesting. They're not afraid to sell. So a good friend of mine is Gagan Biyani. He comes over to my house for dinner with some friends. Someone says to him, “What is this new business that you have? Sprig, what is it?” And he pulls out his phone, he says, “Can you take out your phone? Here, install it on your phone. I'll show you what it does.” And then he starts telling them, “You can order dinner to your house right from your phone using my new service.” [[00:14:01]] Not afraid to sell. Where most people would have said, “I'm not gonna sell to my friends.”
David Laroche : Why? Why is they are not afraid to sell?
Andrew Warner : Because I think in some cases, they think that what they've created is so great that they believe in it. I think in other cases they know that they have to sell in order to build a business. I think in still other cases it's they have to sell because otherwise they can't get positive or negative feedback. If they say, “Would you like this thing if I built it?” you don't really get good feedback. But if Gagan said, “Here it is, do you want to order dinner?” he gets great feedback. So he did that to me via email. He said, “I know you have people over to your house. You can use this to have dinner for them.” I went and tried it, and I was able to go back to him and say, “I'm worried about having dinner for 20 people at my house and I order from Sprig.” Now he got useful feedback. Someone who orders dinner for 20 people has different concerns than someone who orders dinner for just him and his wife, and now he had useful feedback because he asked me. And if he just would have emailed me and said, “Hey, I know you do dinners. Would you ever use a service like this?” I would have said, “Oh yeah, Gagan! I love you! Of course! This is a great idea.” But because he asked me to actually pay, he got much more useful feedback.
David Laroche : And were you afraid to sell?
Andrew Warner : Was I afraid to sell? You know what, on and off in my life, sometimes I am and sometimes I'm not. I think with friends I'm much more afraid to sell, or was more afraid to sell, but I was more comfortable selling, especially in the first business that I had, over the phone where people can't see me. Where I can just ask a question and then bite my fist and just hold myself back because I'm so embarrassed that I said, “Would you buy?” But they don't see that I'm doing that and I get to sell.
David Laroche : As an entrepreneur, we have to learn how to sell our own product. Right?
Andrew Warner : I think so.
David Laroche : Do you think an entrepreneur can avoid to develop this key of selling in having a team of selling men?
Andrew Warner : I guess maybe. A team of sales people maybe could compensate, but it's harder in the early days. Also, if you can't sell your actual product, then do you really believe enough in it? If you can't sell to customers, are you really going to be able to sell a co-founder on the idea that you have? If you can't sell…
David Laroche : You can't sell to sales men.
Andrew Warner : You can't sell to anyone, right? Right. How are you going to sell to sales people? How are you going to sell any of it? Plus, why would you want to? It's like saying I'm going to hire an outsourcer to have sex with my wife because I'm a little afraid. No! You've got to learn to do it! This is part of the fun of business. Is that inappropriate for me to say?
David Laroche : Yeah.
Andrew Warner : Sex? Okay. It's part of the fun of business. When you communicate what you're doing and the other person's jiving with it and you're expressing it in a way that they want to buy it, you feel their love for what you built and you want to build something that they're going to love even more. And that give and take is so much fun! I understand the challenge of it, but it's so worth learning to do.
David Laroche : Great. I love the second key.
Andrew Warner : I don't want to go with universals, but here's something that I really admire. There's some people who are really good at drawing others to them to just work with them, to want to help them out. Tim Ferriss is like that. People who are high-end entrepreneurs admire his ideas so much that they will just want to go and work for him, even if it's for free.
David Laroche : Yeah. I would like to know why and how.
Andrew Warner : Right? How you can go work for him for free?
David Laroche : No. It could be…
Andrew Warner : Oh, why do people want to do it?
David Laroche : Yes, how to develop…how the people who follow us now can develop this kind of skill. It is leadership?
Andrew Warner : I think it's this…I've been thinking about that same thing, too. Why is it that some people want to work for free for others and most people have a hard time finding anyone to help them out? And I think back to when I was a kid and I knocked on the door of Dale Carnegie and Associates, and I said, “Can I please do anything to help here, to work here? I'll do whatever it takes to work here.” I would have paid them to work there. [[00:18:01]] And it was because I read the book “How to Win Friends and Influence People.”
David Laroche : I love this book.
Andrew Warner : Isn't it amazing?
David Laroche : My favorite.
Andrew Warner : Mine too! It changed the way that I interact with people and I wanted to work for them so that I can be around their ideas more, so that I can embody their ideas in a way that I couldn't if I was just reading the book. And so if I think about why would someone want to go work for Time Ferriss for free, or for my friend Noack Hagen for free, or for other entrepreneurs who I've interviewed for free. It's because they have some idea, some process, that the person who wants to work for them wants to get and learn and embody themselves. So with Tim Ferriss, he thinks in such a structured way, in such an organized way, that I would want to work for him to understand how he processes things so that I can learn to do it.
David Laroche : [XXX]
Andrew Warner : Right? How he hires people to do things that most people would spend forever doing. Again, my friend Noack Hagen, he's such a good marketer. He's such a good product developer that when I have a conversation with him and ask a question about how to market or how to create a better product, the ideas he gives me, the direction he gives me, the help he gives me, changes everything for me. And I think, “All right, if I just have this conversation and I'm changed like that, imagine if I worked for him how much I would get from him.” So I think that's what it is.
David Laroche : It is if I work freely for him, I will get back not money but experience value?
Andrew Warner : I think so, and become more like the person that he is. But they're not the only ones and it's not always for free. How many people when Jason Fried says, “I'm hiring,” how many people are dying to work for him at Basecamp, formerly known as 37 Signals? So many people. So many people would reach out to me asking for an introduction to Jason if they could, just so they could get a leg up in getting a job. Why? Because Jason Fried has a set of ideas that if you go and read his book, you'll become better for it. [[00:20:03]] But if you work for him, you'll hopefully get even more of it. And sometimes it's books, sometimes it's a blog, sometimes it's just a way of operating that people gravitate towards.
David Laroche : I love these three keys. Amazing. A lot of people…I share a lot of to my audience the importance of meet people and learn from people, and a lot of times people ask me, “Yes, but how can I meet amazing people?”
Andrew Warner : I'll give you two ways. First of all, I'd suggest you may not want to meet people who are amazing yet. Everyone wants to go and meet the superstars. The founders of these big companies; of Wikipedia and Groupon and Airbnb. Think back of how I met Airbnb. The founders of Airbnb at the time weren't these huge mega successes who were running a multi-billion dollar company. They were early on, starting out. I think the first thing I suggest people do is say, “Who around me who's building should I get to know?” Without any intention of doing anything other than getting to know them and having a good conversation. And so I do that by you're sticking around after this conversation, you'll see that I bought a bottle of scotch, I bought some cheese, I bought some crackers, I bought carrots, and hummus. Right? So we have a little healthy, a little bit cheese for elegance.
David Laroche : Frivolity.
Andrew Warner : Yeah. And I'm going to invite a few people who I meet to come over and have scotch, and you'll see maybe four people tonight. In two weeks I might do it again and different three or four people will show up. And I don't say, “Are they incredible yet?” I just say, “Am I curious about them?” And if I'm curious, then I'll find something incredible about them. And so that's the first thing I suggest, and then grow with those people. The second thing is if you do want to meet those superstars, I really like the way you're doing it, doing interviews. There was a time when people said, “Everyone should blog.” And if everyone should blog, I think it's a good thing to think through your ideas and write them out and communicate them with the world and get feedback, but I don't think you should only process your own ideas. I think if you do an interview with someone you admire and get to ask them questions you really care about and post it on your site for other people to learn from it, you're going to connect with that person, you're going to learn from that person, and you're gonna get them exposed to others who are going to be good connections for you. And so people shouldn't say, “You know what? I don't have this 3-camera shoot with the lighting and the whole setup and experience, and so I can't do it.” They should say, “You know? I admire my old boss from college but I never really got to know him. I'm gonna call her up and I'm gonna ask her a question about how she got started, a question about how she was so productive, and a third question about something I always wondered, and I'll write the answers down on paper or type it into my computer or iPad, and then I'll publish it online. On my Facebook page. On my personal blog. On my business blog.” Hugely effective for getting to know people. How many companies want to have a blog where all they do is announce what's coming up? The latest feature, the latest this, the latest that. No one cares. Well there's pontification about how they think the world should be. Instead, interview those customers that you'd ideally like to have and get to know them, and publish those interviews on your site. Interview articles with people who you'd ideally like to be, publish it on the site and then you get to know them. That's huge.
David Laroche : Yeah, I love that. I love when seeing your company that you focus on the first $10,000 dollars, I love that.
Andrew Warner : Ah, you're wondering what's the average amount of time that it takes for someone to make $10,000?
David Laroche : You say it better than me.
Andrew Warner : I get it. I get what you're talking about, because you're right. This series of interviews I've done with entrepreneurs who earned…we talk about how they earned their first $10,000. Really interesting. Much more than I expected. I don't have an average, [[00:24:00]] and if I did I wouldn't even put it out there because we can't keep comparing ourselves to the average. Think about the damage I would have done if I walked into here comparing myself to you. Well the guy's got good hair, he's got a good smile, whatever, he knows how to dress. Look at this! My socks don't really…they don't even really go with the shoes. My hair needs…I need a good haircut. If I would have just compared myself to you, I don't think it would have made me better on camera with you. I don't think it would have made me perform better. I think it would have kept me from discovering what my own path is. The real question is, who do you want to be in the world? What do you want to leave as legacy? Really put it all out there. I say, right now, I want to die being as close to leaving the kind of legacy that Dale Carnegie left. Dale Carnegie died and you, years after, decades after he was dead, discovered his book and you're better off for him, and we are discussing him today. That's a big goal and I want to put that out there.
David Laroche : This is your vision?
Andrew Warner : It is my vision for myself.
David Laroche : Wow, great.
Andrew Warner : And so…right. And put that out there. Whoever's watching us can compare themselves to where I am here with my interviews, how long it took me to make my first million dollars, my first $10,000, or whatever. That's not productive. What's much more productive is to say, “Okay, I'm gonna stop listening to everyone else who tells me that you shouldn't have money. That money is evil. That legacy means that you're too egotistical,” or whatever! I'm gonna stop listening to all them and I'm gonna sit down and say, “What do I want?” And then go for that and then screw…can I say screw everyone else here in this interview? Yeah. Screw everyone else and their judgment of it, because they will judge. You say, “I want to make a million dollars,” they'll say, “Isn't money the root of all evil? Should you even have money?” You say, “I want to leave a legacy,” they say, “Well what does it matter if you die? Shouldn't you just be happy today?” Tell you what, I want to be happy, rich, and leave a legacy! Is that inappropriate?
David Laroche : Yeah, I love that.
Andrew Warner : Don't you feel that? Does that feel right to you, too, for yourself?
David Laroche : Yeah. I love the way you express your vision. And how do you overcome the criticism of people?
Andrew Warner : Ah, okay. I'm gonna suggest this. Don't overcome it, embrace it. Embrace your troll. Hug your troll. Love your trolls. I used to publish interviews on Mixergy and link to them from Hacker News, a site where developers come and chat and talk about startups. Well I published it on Hacker News and people used to rip into me.
David Laroche : Embrace it.
Andrew Warner : You guys should love it! I'm publishing the stuff that you and I care about! And instead of letting it get me down, I found their phone numbers, and you can do it. You go to betterwhois.com and you type in their domain name and you find their phone number, and then I called them up. And I said, “Look, I admire the fact that you and I are in this community. It means that you're a smart person. I've even looked at your website and I picked you to call because I think what you're building is great. You gave me some negative feedback and I want to get better from it. I want to be the best interviewer I can be and leave the best ideas that I can. What do you think I'm doing wrong?” And I remember I called this one woman who was in London and she said, “You focus so much on revenue that it makes me feel uncomfortable as a European to think about that, and you might want to, for international audiences, tone that down.” Great. I'm not gonna tone that down. I talked to another person who said, “Andrew, you talk so quickly in the beginning of the interviews and you shout and you ba ba ba ba bap!” And I said, “Ah, forget it.” I called another person who said, “Andrew, you can't even hear your name and you're shouting at me like you're a brilliant genius who's going to give me this interview,” and I finally, after hearing a few of those, I said, “You know? I'm going to go slower.” And the interesting thing is people who are shouting at me who are my trolls ended up actually becoming just as loud in supporting me when I adjusted some things or when I showed that I really cared. That I really want to put this out there. Now I'm not suggesting that you call your person who trolled you. I'm suggesting maybe put a comment in there saying, “All right, I like this feedback…”
David Laroche : Thank you.
Andrew Warner : “Thank you. How do I get better?” Really put that out there. Our intention is to get better.
David Laroche : Yeah. Can you share me one of your huge struggle that you have?
Andrew Warner : Yeah, when I was doing Mixergy in the early days and I was doing everything myself and there was no money coming from it, and I said, “I'm not gonna spend my own money. It has to survive on its own.” And it wasn't surviving on its own and I felt like, this is a good question, I felt like such a fraud. Like here I am doing, I think it was 100 interviews in, and I thought, “And this thing isn't even making any money?” And so if I did all these interviews and I'm learning from this, and I still can't make money with Mixergy, why would anyone listen to it? They're not going to learn anything from it. And so that was a tough, tough struggle.and I felt that I couldn't talk about it publicly, but I did.
David Laroche : Great.