DAVID LAROCHE: Hello Achievers! Today, we are with a new guest. I am in Beverly Hills, Los Angeles and I am with an awesome guest. He is a seduction expert. I know you know him. He’s Ross Jeffries and his website is seduction.com. It’s simple and it’s powerful.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Bonjour. Comment allez-vous ?
DAVID LAROCHE: Très bien à toi.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Je m’apelle Ross Jeffries, le roi seduction. Did I get that right? Roi is French for king.
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes. You are the king of seduction.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I was very inspired, originally, by Voltaire. In one of his books, Voltaire said, “Give me ten minutes to talk away my ugly face and I’ll get the Queen of France into bed.”
I remember that when I was about 19 years old, I thought, you know, there’s got to be a way to do that. I don’t know what it is but Voltaire is right.
DAVID LAROCHE: So you worked hard to find a way.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Yes. I believe if a man is not super good-looking or naturally confident or he doesn’t have a lot of money or status, he has to rely on his ability to communicate with women.
He has to know what to listen for, what to get women talking about, how to notice her responses and shake those responses so she begins to look at him through a certain set of emotions.
To me, the art of seduction is about recognizing that women don’t look at men through just their eyes. Women look at men through the emotions they have about the men they’re looking at.
So it’s very crucial that we learn how to cultivate those emotions in a woman so she looks at us through them.
This is the understanding of a seducer.
DAVID LAROCHE: So it’s not only your looks but your ability to provoke emotions.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Sometimes, I can provoke but I wouldn’t use the word “provoke.” I would say “cultivate, awaken” or if you want, “simmer, cook.” Do you understand?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: That’s what I would say. But, sometimes, I’ll provoke. Provoking people can be a way to generate curiosity. I’ve been known to provoke women just to get them curious about me. It’s very powerful. If you can get a woman curious, that’s just a step away from getting her wondering about you; and that’s just a step away from getting her fascinated with you. And that’s just one step away from getting her clothes off.
“Why did you sleep with me?”
I’ve had many women tell me after I had them in bed, “When I looked at you, I didn’t find you particularly attractive but you were fascinating. I wanted to know more. And once I wanted to know more, you got my body excited. Then, I had to sleep with you.”
This is a simple formula that translates into any culture and language. Some of the exact words I give won’t translate into French, but the principles that I’m saying work all over the world.
DAVID LAROCHE: So how do you awaken curiosity?
ROSS JEFFRIES: That’s a very interesting question. There are a lot of different ways to do that. A woman can get curious about the topic of the conversations that you’re introducing.
So if I bring up the topic of, “Do you think we create our future or do you believe in destiny?”
Oh, wow, that’s a really interesting topic. That’s going to create curiosity not only about the topic but about the kind of man who would even ask that kind of question. So it could be about the topic.
I could create curiosity by just the nature of the way I show up. If I show up really funny and really powerful and totally unafraid, she may get curious and think, why is this guy so confident? All the other guys are sort of afraid to talk to me. Why he is so confident?
She could get curious about my attitude. I often do that with women.
The other night, I was at a party. I walked up to the most beautiful woman there and I said to her, “I noticed that you are, by far, the most beautiful woman hear so I thought, I’ll go talk to her and see if she’s someone I’d like to get to know.”
… and she laughed out loud. She said, “Wow, you’re really good at flattering women.”
I said, “No, I just know how to look a woman in the eye and tell her the truth about herself.”
And I was the one she talked to for the rest of the night. So a woman can get curious about my attitude and why I am so confident.
A woman can get curious about the fact that I don’t care that she’s not curious.
Let’s say I say something and she doesn’t respond, the fact that I don’t care that she’s not responding may get her curious.
Why doesn’t he care that I’m not interested in him? How dare he reject me! That’s not right.
There are a lot of different ways to create that initial curiosity.
DAVID LAROCHE: Do you think you can use the same thing for selling things?
ROSS JEFFRIES: Actually, yes, but when you sell, you have to do some more complicated things. Selling is not as easy as seduction. Seduction is easier.
DAVID LAROCHE: For you maybe.
ROSS JEFFRIES: It depends on what you’re selling. I also teach persuasion. I have a website called “MindFrame Persuasion” where I teach these tools for persuasion and selling. It’s a little bit different because, nowadays, people are living in a world where they really don’t know if they’re making a good financial decision.
I don’t know what happened in France but, in America, we had major banks fail; major banks that people have seen all their lifetime were wiped out. And big financial firms that everyone trusted with their retirement money either were wiped out and went out of business or the government had to bail them out.
Look out the window. Homes here are now worth less than half of what they were worth four years ago. There was a big crash in real estate.
So, now, the problem when you want a lot of money from people is, number one, people quite legitimately don’t trust authority anymore because the banks that they used to rely on either went out of business or took their tax money.
Number two, financial decisions that used to make sense—buying real estate—no longer do; so if you’re going to sell something that requires a lot of money, first, you have to convince the person that you’re not trying to sell them anything.
You have to frame it as an education. You have to frame it as a journey of learning and that you’re a very trusted authority or friend that they can trust. Then, the rest of the job has to take place inside of that.
So I think, yes, these tools apply to selling but you have to do more work.
DAVID LAROCHE: Do you have some advice on how to overcome fear?
ROSS JEFFRIES: Yes. My answer is a little bit more complicated than you might expect.
DAVID LAROCHE: I love complicated answers.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I don’t believe there is any such thing as fear. Fear is not a thing like my shoe. This is my shoe; that’s a thing. My eye is a thing although some people would argue that it’s not a thing.
Fear is not a thing. It’s a process that people do. It’s an activity that we label as “fear.” But it’s not a thing that’s stuck in your body somewhere. It is a neurological action or activity.
If it is, in fact, an activity, that implies that it changes over time. By definition, an activity is a process that changes over time. It may change its speed. It may change its power or volume, whatever.
This is a key understanding in NLP. The key understanding in NLP is that most people, by the way we use language… we freeze our world into things called “love” or things called “fear” or things called “confidence.”
In NLP, they use the term “nominalization.” Were you taught about nominalization?
It’s when you take a process and you turn it into a thing.
So, my first big answer to you is to please understand that I don’t believe there is a thing called “fear.” People have the experience of fearing. They do the activity of fearing.
The first key to changing any of these processes is to begin to realize it’s not a thing; it is an activity going on in your neurology, in your brain, and in your body. That’s the first step.
The minute you begin to see it as an activity, then you make contact with it and you can do all sorts of things with it.
You can ground it into your feet. Oftentimes, what I tell my students is, “Feel your feet on the ground. Breathe into your belly. Loosen your upper body and smile. And see what happens to the sensation and the flow of fear. It will very quickly go away.”
That’s just one answer. I have 12 different ways to overcome fear or anxiety. That’s one very quick one.
The understanding and the foundation for all of these methods is by understanding that they’re not things. Confidence is not a thing. It is an activity that you do or undergo.
Does this make sense?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: In this sense, it’s very Buddhist. The Zen Buddhists don’t believe in a thing called a “tree.” In Zen, they would say, “It’s the activity called a ‘tree.’”
So my goal is to get people to unfreeze their world both linguistically by teaching them to use their language in a different way and then neurologically by teaching them to meditate and to be present with flow filling their body.
DAVID LAROCHE: The fact that it is not a thing but an activity, you can change it easily.
ROSS JEFFRIES: By nature, this table is not going to become a flower. It’s stuck being a table unless you destroy it.
A key understanding in NLP is to see how our language tends to freeze our world instead of free our world.
So, feel your feet on the ground; breathe into your belly; loosen your upper body; and de-focus your vision. You’re looking peripherally through the sides of your vision. And smile. That’s one that always works.
Another one is to change the meaning of the activity. I’ll tell you what I mean by that.
Oftentimes, my students say, “I’m terrified of talking to a beautiful woman.”
I say, “Really?” and they say, “Yes.”
I say, “What if there is a criminal sneaking up behind her with a knife about to slice her purse off her arm. Could you talk to her then?”
And they say, “Sure. In fact, I’d yell to get out of the way and I’d run over and I’d tackle the guy and take the knife away.”
So I say to them, “Wait a minute. Where there is no danger and there is no person with a knife, you’re terrified to talk to her. But if there’s someone who could kill you with a knife, you have no fear. Does that make any sense to you?”
And they go, “No, it doesn’t make any sense.”
“Have you ever considered that going up and talking to a woman is actually doing her a favor? It’s not something that you should be ashamed or embarrassed about. You’re actually going to make her day.”
They go, “Oh.”
So you can change the meaning of the activity. It’s something where they realize, “Oh, it’s not a bad thing to do.” The meaning of the activity is “I’m going to have some fun.”
DAVID LAROCHE: And to do that alone, do you have to question yourself? If I’m alone and afraid of something, how can I change the meaning of something?
ROSS JEFFRIES: Very smart question! You ask good questions.
What you need to do is prepare to be afraid. Rehearse being afraid, and then rehearse doing something to get out of that state of fear.
I’ll tell you a story. Let’s say that you and your lovely friend are walking down the street here and, God forbid, you get mugged. Do you know what “mugged” means? It’s when someone jumps out, beats you, and takes your money.
The next night, you decide, I’m going to walk down the same street. The same guy jumps out, takes your money, and beats you up again.
By the third night, you’d either probably not walk down that street or you’d be ready. He’s not going to take you by surprise anymore, correct?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: So when someone has a habit, what I say is, in an area of life that’s difficult or that has been difficult, these old responses of fear and anxiety are going to come up not because you want to sabotage yourself; they come up because they have momentum. They come up because, after so many repetitions, they just have their own momentum.
Do you understand what I mean by “momentum”?
If you take a car and get it rolling down the hill, you can shut the engine of and it’s still going to go faster and faster.
F = MA: Force = Mass x Acceleration
It’s one of Newton’s laws of motion.
They’re the same emotion and patterns of thinking. They have momentum and they’re going to come up.
So you’ve got to be prepared for them. Be ready to be afraid. Rehearse being afraid. And then, rehearse doing something.
Rehearse the fact that the guy’s going to jump out at you. Have something ready to shoot him with. Do you understand what I’m saying? Do you get the metaphor?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes. I love that.
ROSS JEFFRIES: N’est–ce pas? What does “n’est–ce pas?” mean?
DAVID LAROCHE: Isn’t it?
ROSS JEFFRIES: I told you I’ll give you a lot of good answers. You don’t need to worry.
DAVID LAROCHE: We were talking about fear. How can we build self-confidence? I think it’s a muscle?
ROSS JEFFRIES: It’s a muscle, really?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Literally, it’s actually a muscle. Where? Where is it attached? Is it attached to the bicep?
That’s a metaphor. This is another example of using NLP. You just gave me a metaphor. You said, “Self-confidence is a muscle.” You don’t mean it literally. You mean it as a metaphor.
And when you say, “exercise,” you don’t mean it literally in the sense of moving weight; you mean “repetition.”
DAVID LAROCHE: That’s right.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Part of NLP is listening to people’s metaphor and saying, “Oh, is that metaphor useful? Is it accurate? What, based on that metaphor, can I predict about the person’s thinking and behavior?”
I’m giving you an NLP lesson as we’re doing the interview.
DAVID LAROCHE: I love that.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Listen to the metaphor.
DAVID LAROCHE: What is your interpretation of my metaphor?
ROSS JEFFRIES: My interpretation is that you’ve read that somewhere and said, “That makes sense” but you didn’t ever really think it through. I mean no disrespect to you.
You never actually thought, oh, that’s a metaphor. You took it as being literal, as a guide. I mean no disrespect. That’s my interpretation.
DAVID LAROCHE: Sure.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Oftentimes, that’s how people’s thinking work. Metaphors are powerful because people accept them as being true and because the unconscious recognizes structure rather than content.
If I said, “Love is a battlefield,” a lot of people will go, “Yes, that makes sense,” because it’s a metaphor; the unconscious mind is trained to recognize stories, metaphors, and to just accept them. You get an age regression. People turn into a three year old.
Children of every culture like their parents to read stories to them. When you were a little boy, didn’t your parents read to you?
Do you know the book, Le Petit Prince?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I know what they read to you. Pippi Longstocking, do you have this character?
JULIE: [French part] 0:20:42.4
DAVID LAROCHE: [French part]
ROSS JEFFRIES: Whatever, whoever it is…
The unconscious mind recognizes certain structures as a signal to turn off the critical brain, and you just accept.
“Once upon a time, far, far away, in a land that was enchanted,” right away, you go, “Oh, that’s a story. Relax. Listen.”
Did you ever see Star Wars?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes, I love that.
ROSS JEFFRIES: “A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away,” right? It’s setting up that this is fairy tale, so just relax and watch.
How would you say that in French, “A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away”?
DAVID LAROCHE: [French part] 0:21:23.5
ROSS JEFFRIES: That means “a galaxy far away”?
DAVID LAROCHE: No. [French part] 0:21:37.5
ROSS JEFFRIES: People accept metaphors as being “oh, it sounds sensible; therefore, I’m going to accept it.”
In fact, I don’t think self-confidence is something that needs to be exercised. It simply needs to be understood and aimed at the right way.
And we have to define it. I think there are different kinds of confidence. You could aim for the wrong kind and wind up tying your shoes in a knot and falling over. That’s a metaphor. I don’t mean, literally, that you’re going to tie your shoes in a knot; but it painted a picture in your mind that you could see vividly, didn’t it?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: The metaphor is extremely powerful. It creates a state of suggestibility and it paints a vivid mental imagery. You combine a state of suggestibility and vivid mental imagery and people will just believe it even if it’s not accurate or true.
This is why religion has more power than science because religion uses metaphor and stories. Science speaks accurately in the language of measurement. And while that’s far more useful for finding truth, it doesn’t convince very well.
Confidence—let me get back to this.
There’s what I call “performance confidence.” This means you’ve done something very well a thousand times, so one thousand and one, you have every reason to believe you’ll do well.
I have performance confidence when it comes to doing these interviews. Do I look confident to you?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I’m very comfortable. I know I’ve done it a thousand times. I know I’ll do well in it. I know what I’m talking about. That’s performance confidence.
The problem is many people want performance confidence before they’ve done much performing at all. They want a guarantee that they’ll do well at something before they’ve done a lot of practice or performing, so they’re stuck in a prison, to use a metaphor.
They don’t do any performing and they never get any confidence; and they sit there chasing their own tail and they think about it and they think about it and they think about it. Do you get it?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: There’s performance confidence. But, then, there’s what I call “acceptance confidence.”
Acceptance confidence says, “Right now, I’m not very good at this and I don’t feel very comfortable. But I accept that. I accept the fact that I’m not sure what I’m doing. I accept the fact that I feel uncertain; and let’s go see what I can do.”
It doesn’t wait for a feeling of certainty. That’s acceptance confidence. That’s far more powerful for people who really want to make progress.
I teach this to my students. I teach them acceptance confidence.
DAVID LAROCHE: And the consequence will be performance confidence.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Now, if you take acceptance confidence and you wrap around it the ability to have fun, to actually enjoy not being very good at something and not knowing what’s going to happen, then, you’ve really got people moving because, now, they don’t wait for a guarantee, they’re fine with whatever happens, and they’re having fun.
And that’s attractive. Listen to me.
A person who doesn’t need a guarantee of success, a person who’s open to what the world brings and is not afraid to fall on his face, to use a metaphor, a man who doesn’t need a guarantee and who’s happy and laughing when he stumbles is attractive because so many people want a guarantee of success.
I know so many beautiful women who are actually very afraid of life because there’s something in their life they want to do and they want a guarantee.
So when someone walks up to her and is uncertain and maybe a little nervous but doesn’t care, that’s attractive on a level that you can’t explain with words.
Have you ever heard woman say, “I don’t know what it is about him; there’s just something about him”? That’s one of those “somethings.”
I’m an expert in explaining what those “somethings” are and then showing guys how to do that something.
I can see into the things that other people cannot see. I can extract that and go, “This is the essence of it; now, here’s how you do it.”
There’s another kind confidence that I call “compassion confidence.”
One of the biggest lessons for me is watching my father die. My father died on June 19, 2008. I was there with my father when he left this world.
Just before he died, he opened his eyes and looked at everyone, and then he died. And I remember touching my father’s body. He was still warm. I was thinking, Wow, it’s over for him. This is it. He’s gone. This is the shell of my father.
That was very interesting because I had never even thought of that idea—the shell of my father. I never even thought of that idea. And here he was right in front of me. I thought, this is going to happen to me one day. One day, my game is all going to be over and I’m not going to get another chance. This is reality.
I thought, what difference does it make what anyone thinks about me or what a woman says? I better live my life and really enjoy and not worry about what someone’s going to say because, one day, I will be here.
But the other realization is, every woman that I approach or talk to, when she was born, she was born wearing the same thing that I was born wearing.
What were you wearing the moment you were born? Nothing.
ROSS JEFFRIES: What were you wearing the moment you were born?
ROSS JEFFRIES: One day, death is going to come for you and what’s going to happen? You’re going to stop breathing. I guarantee it’s going to happen for her, too.
Compassion confidence is realizing on some level that that person you want to approach or sell to or to do whatever is in the same condition as you are. They’re born; they’re going to die; and, in between, they’re trying to figure it out, make some sense a bit, and find some meaning.
Do you understand?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Now, some people want to do more of that; some people want to hurt other people; some people want to create empires. But, basically, it’s the understanding that we’re all in the same condition through birth all the way to death.
We suffer. The Buddhists say that the three major imperious unconsciousness are craving—we get pleasure and we want more; aversion—we don’t want our pleasure to go away; and there’s unconsciousness where we’re not aware that we’re doing things. Things just come up.
Every human being has the same condition. I don’t care how beautiful your girlfriend is or your wife is; she is subject to the same gravity as you are. If we jump off a building, we’re all going to fall at 32 feet per second. This is the law of nature.
DAVID LAROCHE: We follow the same laws.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Right now, we’re all subjected to the same atmospheric pressure. I don’t know what it is—pounds per square inch, right?
We all convert energy the same way through the mitochondria of ourselves. If you eat a meal tonight, probably, within 18 hours, something is going to happen that will happen for her, for that person or that other person.
Compassion confidence is having a little corner of your mind go, you know, no matter what’s going on, no matter how I feel, that person is fundamentally in the same condition as I am. They may have different plumbing. I may be excited looking at them but, fundamentally, we’re in the same condition.
And you really can’t fear someone or hate someone that you see as being in the same condition as yourself, can you?
DAVID LAROCHE: He is like a brother.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Or a sister. It’s one thing to get that as a concept. When you start to meditate… this is why I believe meditation is more important than NLP.
NLP never made me any wiser. It never made me any more loving. It never made me any more compassionate. It’s not designed to do that. That’s not what it’s designed to do. It’s not uncommon about NLP. You could have a beautiful camera but it’s not a very good refrigerator. It’s not designed to do that.
I only started to become that way through meditating. When you meditate, this concept that we’re all in the same condition becomes a reality. It’s not just a concept you get organically. You get it with your body, if only for a few moments, but it carries over into waking, walking, life off the meditation cushion.
And there’s one more form of confidence—learning confidence. It says, “No matter what happens, I have the ability to extract the lesson and learn what I need to learn.”
So if I said to a guy, “What if you’re guaranteed that when you approach a woman, even if you didn’t get what you want from her, I guarantee you that you’ll learn exactly the lesson so the next time you’ll do it right, would you be so reluctant to approach?”
He said, “No, probably not.”
So I teach learning confidence.
DAVID LAROCHE: It’s the same thing as building a company. You learn from the first company (maybe it fails) but the next one will succeed.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Correct. Now, many people say this, but do they teach you exactly how to learn from your lessons?
Everyone says, “Learn from your lessons.” To me, that’s like saying, “Be a fantastic piano player.”
How am I supposed to do it? How, specifically, do I learn from my lessons?
That’s another thing that I teach. I’m more proud of that. I’m more proud of my ability to teach guys how to learn from their lessons,. That’s more difficult than teaching them what do say and do with women.
Teaching them what to say and do with women is relatively trivial compared to teaching them how to manage their emotions and to learn from their lessons quickly. That is far more difficult.
Am I … to you? There’s no one else in this seduction community who even understands what that’s about. What to say can actually teach guys how to do it.
I’m the only one. I mean, I honestly think I’m the only one in the world who understands that.
DAVID LAROCHE: Great!
ROSS JEFFRIES: Am I talking too much?
DAVID LAROCHE: Great! We love the content.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I wonder how it will translate into French, though. Will it be translated into French?
JULIE: I will do it.
DAVID LAROCHE: She will do it. She’s great in translating.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Fantastique! I love the French countryside. I love Normandy. My father was a soldier in World War II. He landed in Normandy, and then they fought their way up into Holland and Belgium, and then they went back down into Germany. He was wounded in battle, the Battle of the Bulge.
DAVID LAROCHE: Have you visited Normandy?
ROSS JEFFRIES: I love Normandy. I didn’t get to the beaches. I got to a town called… it was on the Eure River. It was called “Ivry.” Do you know this town?
JULIE: Just Ivry.
ROSS JEFFRIES: How would you say “to be drunk in battle”? It’s right on the Eure River. It’s beautiful! I loved it. Anyone who doesn’t like France has never been there or is watching movies instead of going there.
DAVID LAROCHE: It’s a great country. It’s small but…
ROSS JEFFRIES: It’s beautiful. He used to live right near Monaco, right on the border of Monaco, a village called “Èze.”
DAVID LAROCHE: I don’t know it.
ROSS JEFFRIES: It’s right near Monaco. Nietzsche, the philosopher, spent his last years living in that village. Beautiful!
I don’t particularly like the big cities. I don’t like any big city.
DAVID LAROCHE: What do you think about L.A.?
ROSS JEFFRIES: Wow! L.A. is like ten different cities stitched together by freeways; it’s not one city. L.A. is a strange place to live in. I’ve lived here my whole life. My parents moved here from New York. It’s a strange place.
People in L.A., we call ourselves “Angelinos.” Angelinos will regulate their lives around traffic.
For example, if my friend calls me and says, “Come visit,” I have to say, “It’s Friday. What will traffic be like at three in the afternoon?” He lives in the valley. “If I leave now, it will take me 45 minutes; but if I leave at five o’clock, it will take me two hours.”
We calculate by traffic. You have to have a car. There’s some train service, but it’s very minimal. Only the poor people (sorry if this come off badly) take the trains.
Los Angeles is very isolating in the sense that you can have many friends but they live all over the city. You have to match schedules or you won’t see them.
Where I live could be expensive. I live five blocks from the Pacific Ocean so it’s expensive.
There are many people in this town who are trying to make it in showbiz. There are many people who say, “Oh, well, you know, I’m a waiter but, really, I’m a director.” Everyone is trying to get into showbiz.
I have no use for it. I don’t care about Hollywood. Except to do interviews and publicize my business, I could care less. But many people are like, “Wow, Hollywood! I’m going to be a star.”
I have famous neighbors. I have a very famous neighbor who lives right across the street from me. I have a very famous movie star who lives across the street from me. There are many famous people who live around my neighborhood.
DAVID LAROCHE: Where do you live?
ROSS JEFFRIES: Marina del Rey. It’s right by the ocean but it’s also right next to Venice. A lot of celebrities live in Venice.
DAVID LAROCHE: We love to interview different kinds of people. Let’s continue.
You were talking about learning confidence and you said something very interesting. We don’t learn how to learn from experiences…
ROSS JEFFRIES: For most people, learning is memorizing. We go to school; we memorize the answers; we put them on the test; the teacher tells us how many we get right.
We’re not taught how to think and we’re not taught how to tolerate and even enjoy uncertainty.
I’ve trained myself to enjoy being uncertain—to love it, to be attracted to the smell of uncertainty. It’s fun for me because uncertainty tells me there’s a doorway to knowledge and understanding that most people don’t get. So it’s a chance for me to have greater skill than other people.
DAVID LAROCHE: To improve yourself.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Yes, and have greater skill than other people, which I like. I like having that advantage. You see, my foot begins to twitch like a snake rattling his tail. I like that idea of having an advantage over people. It excites me.
DAVID LAROCHE: Cool. How can I learn from my experiences? What do you advice on how to learn from experiences?
ROSS JEFFRIES: First of all, I think people have to have a real tolerance for uncertainty. They need to be able to enjoy and really tolerate doing things where they’re not sure what’s going happen. They need a way of accurately recording what happened, and then they need a way of analyzing: What really happened here if I look from different perspectives? If I look from the other person’s perspective, what happened? If I look from my perspective, what happened? If I imagine being a third person looking at both of us, what happened?
So you have to be able to take on different perspectives in your mind.
And you need to learn how to recognize when a trance is beginning to develop or when you’re beginning to want to go into a trance that allows you to learn just a little bit better.
When a person can see that that’s what’s already starting to happen for them, then, they realize, wow, I can learn.
When you’re learning to tell time, to read a clock, there’s a while where you were very confused and you didn’t understand what it meant: How can I read? What does it mean? The hand is on the 12; the hand is on the 5. Why doesn’t that equal 17? Twelve plus five is seventeen. I don’t get it.
But, suddenly, one day, you look at it and the understanding blossomed up from the unconscious mind; and, now, you cannot not understand reading a clock. If you look at a clock, you would automatically be able to read it unless you’re very drunk.
DAVID LAROCHE: It’s the same thing when you learned to walk.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Or to do simple arithmetic. Ultimately, learning requires conscious practice and then getting it out of the way and letting the understanding flow up from the unconscious. So we have to learn to develop a good relationship with our unconscious mind which requires, I think, a practice of meditation and self-hypnosis.
I have a very good and rich unconscious—and very creative. Sometimes, when I’m struggling with a program, I’ll dream about finding diamonds in my home, gathering them together, putting them in a little bag, and putting them in a safe. I like to look at them in my dream and sift through them.
And that’s a metaphor for my unconscious mind saying, “There are gems of creativity here.” So we need to learn to listen to our unconscious mind and to have a practice of self-hypnosis.
I’m very aware of my dreams. In the morning when I awaken, I’ll spend 20 minutes lying there and remembering as much in my dreams as I can.
DAVID LAROCHE: Why?
ROSS JEFFRIES: Because it’s showing respect for my unconscious mind. It’s saying, “I’m open to these messages. Please keep sending them.” And it teaches me something about my thinking.
I tend to dream in puns, in jokes.
DAVID LAROCHE: Do you write what you…
ROSS JEFFRIES: I just remember. Sometimes, I’ll write it but I’ll spend 20 minutes thinking about it and recalling the dreams and saying, “What does that mean?”
Every once in a rare while, as a gift, my unconscious, while I’m dreaming, will interpret a dream for me; it will say, “You’re asleep. Would you like to know what this dream means as you’re having it?”
I’ll say, “Yes.”
But this is because I’ve spent years showing respect to my unconscious by remembering and honoring my dreams. This is a lot of what Milton Erickson talked about.
DAVID LAROCHE: We did a very short training on Ericksonian hypnosis, and it was great.
ROSS JEFFRIES: You did a short course?
DAVID LAROCHE: A short training.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Where did you do the training? Was he an NLP guy?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I actually went to see Ernie Rossi who was Milton’s biographer. In the last eight years of Milton Erickson’s life, Ernie Rossi wrote books with him and interviewed him. Last year, I went to see Ernie for five days. He did five days of hypnotherapy with me. It was a fascinating experience. He knew Milton intimately. He talks a lot about him.
DAVID LAROCHE: We love to learn hypnosis. It’s great.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I will tell you that Erickson was an unconventional thinker. He didn’t think like most people did. He learned from his own experiences of having to struggle with tremendous pain.
He was the exact archetype of the wounded healer, the person who is suffering, and through his suffering learned to help others. The story is that he would get attacks. His polio was so severe the muscles would rip off the ligaments. But he used self-hypnosis to control the pain.
So, what was your question? Can you remember it?
DAVID LAROCHE: How can I learn from my experiences?
ROSS JEFFRIES: I’ve just given you some examples. I gave you some examples of what to do, right?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: That’s what I would say. And get a good coach like me.
DAVID LAROCHE: That’s good advice.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I’ve been doing this since 1988 before many of these so-called people were even born. I have, literally, not as an exaggeration or a metaphor, taught more than 10,000 people and have done work with that many people.
I know the right places to push. I know what doors to close and what doors to help people open in their mind, not literally but as a metaphor.
If you have a problem, do you want someone who’s pretending or do you want the person who is the absolute expert who can solve it?
“Come to me” is what I would say. And I’m very busy. If you want to hire me as a coach, go to seduction.com and put in an application. Send an email because I’m very busy.
DAVID LAROCHE: And you are going to France?
ROSS JEFFRIES: I’m going to Paris, France to do a seminar on June 15. I think you’ll have a link that you can give out to people to find out more about it.
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes. There will be a link with the video.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Although the video might be shown by the time the seminar is over. When will this video air? We’ll find a way.
Hey, if you want to fly to America and spend a week with me, it’s expensive but if someone’s watching this, go to seduction.com and they’ll say, “Get live training with Ross.” You can click on that and it will tell you how to apply.
DAVID LAROCHE: It is possible when you want to do something.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Pass me the money, although I will help people for free. I’ve done a lot of that work.
DAVID LAROCHE: Does it work when you do it for free?
ROSS JEFFRIES: Sure, it works. I’m that good. If you come to see me, it will work.
DAVID LAROCHE: So you believe in the fact that you can teach people for free.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Of course. If you teach people geometry, it doesn’t matter whether they’re paying or not; they’re still going to get it right. There are certain rules at work.
DAVID LAROCHE: What do you think about the fact that if they don’t give something from themselves, they will not have the…
ROSS JEFFRIES: If they’re coming all the way across the continent and an ocean to see me, they’re giving something. It may not guarantee they can get my time because I’m busy with people who pay, but they’re giving something.
DAVID LAROCHE: It’s not money but they…
ROSS JEFFRIES: They’re invested and involved.
DAVID LAROCHE: Do you some advice on how to make rapport with people?
ROSS JEFFRIES: Yes, I have a very different view about it, though.
DAVID LAROCHE: I’m sure about that. Do you have a process?
ROSS JEFFRIES: By the way, these are really cool devices. If people can’t see on the camera, they have something they’re using to record me. It looks like something from the old Star Trek show I used to watch when I was a kid in the sixties. It’s very cool. I want one of those just to play with.
My answer to your question is, first, rapport is about willingness, a willingness to enter the world of the other person—a willingness and a desire to understand and to enter their world.
Without that attitude, without that willingness, it’s just a bunch of stage tricks that may or may not work. So it’s about the willingness to enter and understand the other person’s world.
Secondly, it’s about the flexibility to do that. I don’t mean this kind of flexibility. Quite impressive for an old man!
DAVID LAROCHE: It can help maybe to…
ROSS JEFFRIES: No, I mean a mental flexibility, a quickness of mind, and an ability to shift into the other person’s world.
Thirdly, I think rapport is a matter of demonstrating to the other person that understanding or, at least, giving the illusion that you understand.
DAVID LAROCHE: And how do you do that?
ROSS JEFFRIES: People will not accept that you’re an authority on where they should go unless they first accept that you’re an authority on where they’re at. So you have to demonstrate that you understand where they’re at.
You can do it verbally or non-verbally. There are all sorts of ways to do it. But that’s a whole five-hour discussion.
And then, there are the non-verbal aspects of rapport—matching, mirroring, and that sort of thing.
I do want to say something that a colleague of mine pointed out, and I actually think he’s correct. I think matching and mirroring is not what causes rapport. Matching and mirroring is the result of being in rapport.
It’s like saying the exhaust from your car is causing the car. No, the car is causing the exhaust. … backwards. They’re putting the cart before the horse, to use a metaphor.
I think matching and mirroring don’t create rapport. I think rapport and unconscious communication create the matching and mirroring.
Oftentimes, when I’m with a woman, I’ll notice that she and I are mirroring each other; and I’ll say, “Stop. Don’t change your posture. Don’t move. Don’t change anything. Freeze. Look at how you’re sitting and look at how I’m sitting.”
And she’ll look down and go, “Oh,” and we’re completely matching each other not because I consciously tried to do it. I wasn’t doing it consciously at all as a technique nor was she doing it. It just flows out of the fact that on an unconscious level, there’s something going on.
It’s unconscious communication and I also believe it’s energetic. There’s something going on energetically beyond the physical flesh and blood.
One more thing—this is important, David. This is very crucial.
Another huge difference between me and I think every other… the mystery methods school, all these social biologist bull…
I don’t believe that human beings are just bone and meat. I believe we’re far more than that. I don’t believe that humans are just flesh and blood.
I believe there’s something going on that humans participate in a flesh and blood world but we also, to use a metaphor, have a foot in another world that is not cause and effect, that is not matter, where there is no separation between people, where distance and time don’t matter, and where it’s about information and energy.
I believe this. And I believe that when people are in deep rapport, it’s not just the physical world or the unconscious mind and the brain; there’s something else going on.
And I think I’m the only one who truly believes that in the seduction, pick-up community. The rest of them are into the Red Queen and evolutionary psychology.
Evolutionary biology is a fact. I completely believe that. But I don’t think evolutionary psychology is science, and I think that people like mystery and Neil Strauss who quote it don’t understand it. They’re misquoting it.
I don’t believe human beings are simply flesh and blood. And when you look at the world that way and you understand that many things that are going on between us are not just a matter of biology, then, you can begin to enjoy those things with people whether they believe in it or not.
DAVID LAROCHE: And do you think we can influence the other part of this world about energy?
ROSS JEFFRIES: My personal opinion? Absolutely!
DAVID LAROCHE: How can we learn to do that? How can we do that?
ROSS JEFFRIES: That’s a separate question. You didn’t say, “Do you believe we can influence it and how do you learn to do it?”
I didn’t say it was learnable, did I?
DAVID LAROCHE: No.
ROSS JEFFRIES: So let’s not make that assumption. I think we’re now getting into an area where we have to be very careful.
Here’s the problem: These experiences of this non-material world look a lot like it’s just fantasy and imagination. They look pretty much like what we would just hallucinate or dream up. So it’s very difficult to tell what’s actually happening and what’s just in our minds
So this takes a very disciplined mind. And we’re really straying way off from the topic.
Let’s just say that I believe these things happen. They’re a lot more flaky and random than the material stuff, but that doesn’t mean they’re not real.
DAVID LAROCHE: I understand. I would like to know more about your business and how you built it. According to you, what are the differences in what you do compared to a lot of coaches in seduction? Why did you succeed in this field?
ROSS JEFFRIES: First of all, I think I came along at the right time. I started this in 1988 before there was really an Internet. Technically speaking, there was an Internet; it was called “ARPANET.” It was a way university labs would talk to each other.
The UCLA campus is about three miles that way. If you were a scientist at UCLA and you wanted to talk to someone at the University of Chicago, you could use that net to send email and that kind of thing.
But I came along just as the Internet age was dawning and no one else was doing this. At the time, I did a lot of TV talk shows. And then, a student of mine who was a computer hacker said, “You should get on the Internet.” I said, “What’s that?” and he said, “I’ll show you.”
And then, the web came along and, in 1994, I was on the web with seduction.com.
I had a period of time, from 1994 to about 2000, when I was the only one doing this. We were printing money, not literally but as a metaphor.
I came along at the right place at the right time. That’s number one.
Number two, I believe I have the personality to do this. I like being on camera. I can’t understand, for the life of me, how someone would be nervous about being on camera or being on stage. I absolutely have the personality for it.
I have the ability to understand and respect how guys who are very left-brained—engineers and computer scientists—think. So I can get through to them. I can get their attention long enough to show them how to get onto the other side of that. They respect me when I talk to them. They understand that I’ve been through these experiences.
I believe that it’s my destiny to be doing this. My path in life is to be doing what I’m doing now. It’s not just a job. It’s my calling. That’s why I’m here.
DAVID LAROCHE: Maybe a mission?
ROSS JEFFRIES: A mission, advocacy, or whatever you want to call it.
Someone once wrote about me, a magazine in Europe. They called me the “sex messiah of the nerds.”
In a sense, I’m a messiah to some of these guys. I’m their savior. They’re walking in darkness. I pull the darkness off their eyes.
It’s Jesus healing the blind man. I’m using it as a metaphor. I don’t believe I’m Christ Jesus. But there’s something messianic about it. I do this because I have to do it.
And I think that’s a difference. You’ll see that if you talk to other people in the field, they’ll talk to you about what great seducers they are.
I haven’t even brought up that topic. I’ve never even said that. I’m only talking to you about how much I love my work, how it works, and how much I help my students.
DAVID LAROCHE: I think everybody has to find his own mission his own way.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I don’t know if everyone is meant … I’m fortunate enough that I did.
And the final element is that I’m insanely curious. I want to know how things work. It’s not enough for me to get something. I want to understand how it works.
I was taught by my mother to think outside the box, to not accept something as being true just because someone says it, right?
So I never accepted this idea that you have to be good-looking or that you have to have a lot of money. I thought, No, this isn’t true. I’ve seen guys who are not good-looking and who don’t have money, and they get women. So there’s got to be a way to do it.
I think creatively, and then once I want an answer, I never give up. I never, ever, ever give up looking. I looked for years before I found NLP in ’87. I tried all sorts of things. And, even then, in ’87, there was no NLP application for picking up girls or seducing. I had to create it. I had to sit there and watch Richard Bandler’s videos for days and days and go to seminars.
I had to extract it up and I thought, Wait, I can take this idea that Richard is talking about here; and let’s go run some experiments and see if it works for seduction and getting girls.
There was no one I copied it from in that sense. It required me to be creative, do testing, analyze the results, and be creative again. I have the ability to be creative but, then, to be very analytical, too. I’m built to do this. My mind is absolutely built to do this. I was fortunate to have that kind of mind.
The way I was brought up, my mother and father taught all of us children that we were the smartest people in the world, that everyone else was dumb compared to us and we could do anything. That was what we were taught.
My mother, in particular, if I asked her a question, wouldn’t tell me the answer. She’d say, “Go look it up.”
We didn’t have a lot of money. I wouldn’t say we were poor but we were just above poor. But we always had money for books. We had a set of encyclopedias.
Back then, there was no web. People read books.
And so, my mother would say, “Go look it up,” and if there wasn’t an answer in the encyclopedia, she’d take me to the library. If there wasn’t an answer in the library, do you know what she would say?
“You be the one to go find the answer. You go make the answer.”
DAVID LAROCHE: It’s amazing. My next question is, do you have some advice for us on how to succeed in life and to become happy in this life?
ROSS JEFFRIES: I can speak to that profoundly. The greatest teacher I’ve ever met is not Richard Bandler or any of these people from the NLP world although Richard is a genius, a world-class genius.
The greatest teacher I’ve met was in 2006. His name is Shinzen Yang. He is to meditation what Milton Erickson was to hypnosis, in my opinion, and what Albert Einstein was to physics. He brought meditation to me and really made it available to me.
He taught me that there are two kinds of happiness. I never really got it before. Other people had said it, but Shinzen really drove the point home. I hope I can drive this point home.
There are two kinds of happiness. There’s the happiness that’s dependent on conditions. You’re getting what you want. You’re with the people you want to be with. They’re treating you the way you want them to treat you. You’re making the money you want. You’re living where you want to live. You have the things you want to own. You’re enjoying the sex that you want to enjoy.
There’s happiness that’s dependent on conditions. And that’s perfectly legitimate. We, as human beings, are designed to seek that out; and that’s great.
Through meditation, I’ve learned that there’s happiness that has nothing to do with conditions. There’s unconditional happiness that has nothing whatsoever to do with the conditions of your life.
That kind of happiness is profoundly satisfying. There’s a difference between pleasure and satisfaction. There’s a difference between pain and suffering.
It’s possible for human beings to be in objective conditions that would seem to be miserable, but to bring in awareness to those conditions where the suffering is transformed into something else, that means you stop being afraid of life because no matter happens, there’s a way of being aware of it where even though it may hurt like hell, it doesn’t turn into suffering.
And when you do have pleasure, you don’t go crazy trying to get more of it or grab on to it. You can experience a satisfaction.
Now, I am only an infant in this. I’m barely learning to walk with this practice. I’m into it and I’m in my seventh year. I’m not very disciplined with it and I don’t do it hardly enough. But it is really profoundly transforming.
The people who have met me before I did it would recognize my physicality but they wouldn’t recognize the person. I’ve always been brilliant and funny; they would recognize that. But my beliefs about what’s important in life have changed.
I still love beautiful women. I still like helping men to achieve their goals. I still like fucking and all that great stuff, but there’s something else I’ve experienced.
I experienced that when I watched my father die. Something that you would think would be a horrifying experience… and understand that I lived my adult life fearful of losing my parents. I was afraid I would go insane because I loved them that much.
I was with my dad when he died and it was both terribly painful and, at the same time, transcendentally beautiful.
If I had heard me talking this way ten years ago, I’d say, “This guy is fucking crazy. He’s making it up.”
With just over six years of meditating, I’ve had maybe, in aggregate, ten minutes, maybe fifteen minutes of this experience—not all at once but scattered in little …
I had experienced a peace that’s beyond human understanding. They talk about it in the gospels, a peace beyond human understanding. I had experienced that directly, not as a concept but as a reality.
I had experienced a satisfaction that teaches me that I’m not separate from the world, that I’m not a thing living inside of another thing called the “world.”
Do you understand?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes, it’s amazing.
ROSS JEFFRIES: And listen to me. I’d experienced that very, very, very briefly. I’m not talking about enlightenment or any of that. I’m a child in this barely learning to walk compared to some of … who have been doing it for forty years with far more consistency than me.
But I would say to people, “Work on both sides of that equation. Work on improving your conditions, but learn a practice that teaches you happiness independent of conditions. It’s possible.”
And understand something—also understand that, sometimes, life is not about simply learning your behaviors. It’s about cultivating different kinds of consciousness.
There’s creative consciousness which NLP teaches beautifully—how to get in touch with your own conscious mind, how to visualize the way you would like to be, how to use hypnosis to vividly create new pathways and new behaviors and beliefs. It’s beautiful. I practice and teach it—creative consciousness.
There is witness consciousness like meditation where you learn to be present with whatever is happening with great precision and great concentration and great permission so you’re aware of exactly what’s going on with great centric clarity, with permission (you don’t try to control it), and with focus; you keep your attention there. That’s witness consciousness.
And then, there’s will, the development of focus where you will continue to return to your goal no matter what the interruptions are.
Creative consciousness, witness consciousness, and will consciousness—and then, finally, there’s the cultivation of life energy whether it’s doing qigong or yoga (I do yoga) or Tai-Chi. It’s cultivating the energy of life. Do you know what I’m talking about?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: You need to learn those four things, and then any skill you put inside of those will be much easier to do and will be far more powerful.
So I would say to people, “Cultivate those three kinds of consciousness. Find your own practice that works for you. Cultivate life force energy. Find a practice that does that. And then, do what you’re going to do.”
If to change your life just required a different set of place and a different set of things to do, there are millions of books that tell you different things to do. But we don’t have millions of people who have changed their lives. Something is wrong in that equation.
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: The idea that just by consuming a book, you’re going to get changed is pretty ridiculous.
DAVID LAROCHE: You have to experiment…
ROSS JEFFRIES: You have to cultivate consciousness. That’s what I would say.
DAVID LAROCHE: Cool. My girlfriend has two questions for you.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Yes. And how long would you like?
JULIE: My first question is about education because I’m interested in how we could improve education for children so as to build a better humanity.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Are you talking about all over the world or the United States or in France?
JULIE: Whatever you feel like to speak about.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I think children need to be taught that it’s okay to think independently—teaching children to think for themselves and teaching children how to find their own answers to not necessarily believe something because some authority told them.
There’s a wonderful book by an author named Neil Postman called “Teaching as a Subversive Activity.” It’s all about teaching kids to think on their own, to think for themselves.
Children need to have that encouraged in them, and I don’t think it is being encouraged.
JULIE: Not yet.
ROSS JEFFRIES: It needs to be. You have two questions. What is the second one?
JULIE: What is your vision of a better version of this world?
ROSS JEFFRIES: How do we make the world a better place?
ROSS JEFFRIES: It’s very interesting. I’m Jewish by birth. I don’t believe in the Jewish religion but I’m very well-schooled in it.
There’s an idea in Judaism called “tikkun olam.” This means to heal the world. “Tikkun” is “to heal,” and “olam” is “world.”
The idea is that each human being has a responsibility through their spiritual practice and their relationship with God, which I don’t believe in, to participate in healing the world.
So how do we make a better place?
I don’t know. I’m just concerned at how I can make my little corner of the world a better place and spread that out to other people.
JULIE: So how do you do it?
ROSS JEFFRIES: By doing what I’m doing now, by sitting here and talking to people. You know, when people watch this interview, they’re not going to be able to think about these questions in the way they used to think about them before they heard me speak.
My gift is to speak in a way that’s so powerful and so precise and yet so poetic that people will never ever, ever be able to go back to not being able to read the clock, to not being able to tell time, if you understand …
That’s my way of doing it. And then, I also meditate. I’m serious about this. If you meditate and begin to improve your own ability to not suffer so much, then, automatically, you begin to become kinder to other people although, in traffic, I did yell at someone.
I went, oh, wow, you’re yelling at that person; calm down.
That’s what I would say.
Finally, be really, really nice to beautiful women.
JULIE: Thank you very much.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Sure, my pleasure.
DAVID LAROCHE: I have a last question for you. The goal of this question is to…
ROSS JEFFRIES: I have a question for you before we go back to the record. Who else have you been interviewing?
DAVID LAROCHE: We started in New York with Seth Godin.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Wow, how did you get an interview with Seth Godin? How did you do that?
DAVID LAROCHE: I’m a good connector.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Wow! You’ve got to teach me that skill. That’s awesome. Who else have you interviewed?
DAVID LAROCHE: He’s a young millionaire. He’s amazing because he built his business after a car accident, so it’s a movie.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Are you getting anyone else in this pick up, seduction world?
DAVID LAROCHE: No.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Good. Do I seem a little arrogant to you?
DAVID LAROCHE: I have to explain my question before I ask you. You are an NLP expert so you will understand what I would like to do in asking you this question. My goal is to touch people in a way that they’ve not been touched by other speakers in my field.
My film is about how to become a loser…
ROSS JEFFRIES: Repeat what you said. Pretend I didn’t hear a word.
DAVID LAROCHE: When I speak of success and happiness, I speak about how to reach a goal. I would like to touch people in a different way. The fact that we are motivated to avoid some things, we are pushed to…
ROSS JEFFRIES: You’re moving away or moving toward. In fact, people are always doing both simultaneously. That’s how the human neurology is wired. So it’s not true that people either have a moving away from or a moving toward. We’re always doing both. In certain contexts, we’re doing more of one than the other.
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes, that’s what I think. And I would like to touch them in the other way.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Which other way?
DAVID LAROCHE: So my question is, how do you become an average person? How do you become unhappy? How do you become a loser?
ROSS JEFFRIES: Why would you want to know that? First of all, if you’re using nominalization, what’s a loser? Let’s talk about this. How do we define our terms? What is a loser?
I’m serious. You asked a question. Now, I’m going to hold your feet to the fire, to use a metaphor. You probably don’t have this metaphor in France, but we say “hold the feet to the fire.”
What do you mean by a loser?
DAVID LAROCHE: I have my own interpretation.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Tell me what your interpretation is. A famous Frenchman, Voltaire, said, “If you’re going to argue with me, you must first define your terms.”
I think his real name was François-Marie Arouet. Voltaire is one of my heroes.
You’re a French person. Show proper respect to one of the greatest intellects the world has ever known, a French person, Voltaire.
DAVID LAROCHE: My goal is to let them have their own vision on what a loser is.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Who are they, the people you’re teaching?
DAVID LAROCHE: The audience. For example, to be loser is to not be successful or to not be confident.
I don’t want to have a definition of what a loser is. My definition of a loser is the opposite of what they want to be.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I want to ask you personally. How would you define a loser? What is your personal definition of a loser?
DAVID LAROCHE: My personal definition is…
ROSS JEFFRIES: Because we’re all going to die one day so, in that sense, we’re going to lose.
Do you know what my brother would say? My brother is an evangelical born-again Christian who believes that every word of the Bible is true. He would say that a loser is someone who doesn’t have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It doesn’t matter if you’re a billionaire and happy and if you have a hundred girlfriends. You’re going to lose because you’re going to hell forever.
That’s his belief. That’s his reality tunnel. Thank you, he knows the answer. Goodnight.
DAVID LAROCHE: I’ll give you my answer. A loser is someone who doesn’t act to reach his goal in the long term.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I don’t understand. He doesn’t take any actions? What if he’s happy? What if he’s happy not doing anything?
DAVID LAROCHE: If he’s happy, it’s great.
ROSS JEFFRIES: But would he still be a loser?
DAVID LAROCHE: No.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Really!
DAVID LAROCHE: It’s a good question.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I’m trying to point something out. On a larger level, I’m trying to teach you something.
These categories we create in our minds of loser or winner don’t actually represent a reality in the world. They’re definitions through which we look at our world and make ourselves happy or unhappy.
In 1937, in Germany, Adolf Hitler was a winner, not a loser to the German people and to himself. To the countries he was invading and destroying, he was the worst monster in the world.
I’m trying to say that the human brain creates these meanings. They don’t exist externally in the world.
I think a loser is someone who lets the world create meaning for him rather than steps aside and says, “Wait a minute, this is something the world is making up to something I’ve been making up. Can I find a better meaning?”
To me, a loser is someone who doesn’t have the recognition that they’re creating their own meaning or they have someone else’s meaning stuffed into their brain.
I believe people change powerfully when the following things happen:
First of all, they develop the skill to be able to look at their beliefs rather than look through them.
The second thing is they learn to use their language in a way that frees their world rather freezes it.
The third is that they learn to approach an ordinary experience with extraordinary awareness. When you have extraordinary awareness, you can have an ordinary experience that becomes an extraordinary experience.
If you have that, to me, what you do in the external world measured by other people is secondary as long as you’re not creating yourself for other people.
If you do those things and you don’t hurt yourself and you don’t hurt other people and you learn as much as you can and have fun while you do it and do no harm to yourself or others, then, to me, you’re winning.
That’s my definition.
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes, I think so.
ROSS JEFFRIES: My brother-in-law will say that you’re a loser unless you make ten million dollars and you own your own company.
These are human definitions. They don’t have an external reality.
DAVID LAROCHE: So my question will be, how do you become unhappy in this life?
ROSS JEFFRIES: Unhappy? How to become unhappy?
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I think that’s relatively easy.
DAVID LAROCHE: I would like to know your answer.
ROSS JEFFRIES: How to be unhappy? Run away from your dreams. Live your life according to the way other people say you should. Think inside the box. Take shit too seriously. Be afraid to take risks. Don’t enjoy taking risks.
DAVID LAROCHE: I will try everything.
ROSS JEFFRIES: And the best way to guarantee to be a loser is to be addicted to certainty. Value certainty more than you value anything else. To value being certain is a guarantee of abundant unhappiness because if you have to be certain, you won’t question your beliefs. You won’t have the clarity. You won’t have the courage to really look at your assumptions.
Many wars were lost because the decision makers make assumptions that aren’t true and they’re not willing to look at their assumptions; and their generals can’t get them to see what’s really important.
I was a student of military history. I love military history. Over and over again, you see this. People start out in the battle thinking, oh, this is what’s important; we can do this. In reality, something else is important.
DAVID LAROCHE: Those are great ways to become unhappy in life.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Yes—to need to be certain. I’m skeptical about my own ideas. I tell people that that Speed Seduction is not true. It’s not science. It is a map.
NLP is about becoming a really good map maker.
DAVID LAROCHE: Map and territory.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I’ll say that it is a map. It is an incomplete model. It’s not true and it’s not complete.
However, if you do Speed Seduction and look at the world through these maps I’m giving you, you will, far more often, get the results that I predict you’ll get than not get them.
So there’s some sort of truth in there. I don’t know what it is exactly but it’s a model. It’s subject to change,
And I may be incorrect about how it works. I don’t think so. I’m pretty close to being this certain as I ever want to be certain about anything that I do understand how it works. But I could be wrong. I could be radically incorrect.
The willingness to go, “Wow!” to enjoy being wrong and go, “Wow, I was completely… wow! I was wrong. Wait a minute, I was wrong at something. Wow!”
It’s to be happy about that.
The human need to be certain causes more trouble; it will cause people to fly planes into buildings because they want to absolutely believe their religion is right.
It will cause someone to abuse their spouse because they’re absolutely certain that they’re totally right and their spouse is a fucking no good so and so who doesn’t love them, right?
The need to be certain caused the Inquisition to threaten to burn Galileo at the stake because Galileo said the earth moves. And the Bible says the earth doesn’t.
That’s what it says: “He takes the world in its foundations; it does not move.” That’s a quote from Proverbs or something.
I want to teach people to be radically uncertain about their own limitations. What if you became radically skeptical and radically uncertain about all your doubts and about all your self-imposed limitations?
Radical skepticism: I’m a profoundly skeptical person. I enjoy that. I don’t have certainties.
I was talking to a good friend of mine about … It’s important to be uncertain.
DAVID LAROCHE: I think so.
ROSS JEFFRIES: It’s this close to wonder and mystery. The mysterious and the wonderful require that you surrender the need for certainty. You cannot be in awe of something that you claim to totally understand.
I’ve had some experiences I can’t explain. I cannot explain them. They do not make sense according to the ordinary.
One of the most profound experiences of my life was when I was eight years old. I had a close encounter with the UFO. This is going to sound crazy. People will say Ross is crazy. I don’t give a fuck if you think that. I wouldn’t say it if it wasn’t true.
Do you know what I mean by UFO?
DAVID LAROCHE: I’m not sure. How do you say this in French?
DAVID LAROCHE: OVNI.
ROSS JEFFRIES: OVNI—the same in Spanish.
When I was eight years old, looking out my parents’ bedroom window, one night, I saw a gigantic OVNI. It filled up everything. I couldn’t see past and beyond it.
It made no sense. It was like this blob of brilliant light that changed colors and changed shapes. I could barely make it out. It was some kind of a metallic structure.
It didn’t just terrify me. It confused the hell out of me. It could not have been there. It was like the conceptual equivalent of rape because it just took every category of what I thought was possible and blew it to pieces.
I remember turning and going, “That’s not there; that’s not there; that’s not there” and turning around and looking, and it was still there.
I had a sense it was intelligent, and it scared the crap out of me. I’ve experienced fear in my life. But this was a different kind of fear.
If I said there’s a hungry tiger in the next room and you really believed me, … your experience of fear.
But if I said, “There’s a ghost that’s about to melt through the wall,” that’s the second kind of fear—the fear of the absolute, complete unknown.
Now, to this day, I cannot tell you what I saw. If you said, “Ross, is it possible that you were asleep?”
“No. I know I wasn’t asleep. I know that.”
If you said, “Is it possible that was hallucination?”
I’d say, “It’s possible. I don’t think it was but, yes, it’s possible.”
If you said, “If someone else was there, would they have seen it?”
I’d say, “I don’t know.”
If you said, “Was it something from outer space?”
“I don’t know what it was.”
“Do you think it was a projection from your unconscious mind?”
“It could be. I don’t know.”
“Do you think your memory over the years had changed, that you’ve embellished some story?”
The difference is I don’t need to have some theory to explain it. I’ll look at all the theories and say, “You know what, I don’t know.”
But many people will have an experience like that, and they they’re sure they know what the answer is.
And then, there are people who’ll say, “No, it’s all craziness. Those things don’t happen.”
So I’m profoundly skeptical even about experiences that have a great emotional impact to me. I didn’t know what it was. No, I wasn’t drinking. I didn’t drink when I was eight years old.
So I’ve had experiences like that about which I’m profoundly skeptical in the sense that I can’t explain it, and I don’t need to know.
DAVID LAROCHE: I have a last question for you.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Do you know anyone who has ever seen any of those?
DAVID LAROCHE: No.
ROSS JEFFRIES: You have. What did they tell you?
JULIE: No. I’ve been wondering if it was UFO. I was driving in Australia in the night…. And we saw light coming from the sky, and then, there was no light. And then, we kept driving. Again, we saw different lights, and then they were gone.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I’ve seen stuff like that, too. I don’t know what it is. I bet you never expected to hear that.
DAVID LAROCHE: I have a last question. It is a short question without me. What are the key factors of success? I’ll go behind the camera. I did the same thing with Seth Godin. I think it’s very inspirational to have the points of view of different kinds of people about success.
The goal is to do a video of less than two minutes.
ROSS JEFFRIES: Ask your question.
DAVID LAROCHE: According to you, what are the key factors of success?
ROSS JEFFRIES: I don’t have the slightest fucking idea. Go find out for yourself. Develop your own answers. (laughs)
Here’s what I would say. In addition to that, I would say learn to be happy. Find a practice that will let you be happy independent of your circumstances.
Enjoy learning whatever you can. Have fun learning whatever you can. Love as much as you can. Do no harm to yourself or others.
And learn to think outside the box. Learn to think outside of your own limitations. Develop a practice where you can look at your beliefs rather than look through them.
And, finally, enjoy cats. Learn to love cats. I have two cats. If you don’t love cats, I guarantee you will be miserable in this world. Learn what it is to worship a cat because until you do that, you will be an incomplete human being.
DAVID LAROCHE: Great!
ROSS JEFFRIES: I believe those answers, by the way, especially the last part about cats. I love cats. I’ve had cats for years and years. They’re beautiful creatures. Cats are works of art that are always changing.
When a dog moves, it stays in shape. But when a cat moves, it alters its shape. Do you understand? They’re constantly changing. They’re living works of art.
DAVID LAROCHE: Yes, they’re flexible.
ROSS JEFFRIES: A cat in one moment will be licking your hand; the next moment, it will be scratching … You don’t know what it’s going to do. It’s not predictable.
Cats are like girls. You can’t predict what you’re going to do. Men are like dogs…
DAVID LAROCHE: I would love to have an endorsement from you.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I don’t know your work. How can I do that? Honestly, I don’t know…
DAVID LAROCHE: It’s just on what we’re doing now and what you think about me.
ROSS JEFFRIES: I’ll do what I can.
DAVID LAROCHE: My name is David Laroche. You can pronounce it the way you want. In French, we say “Laroche.”
What do you think about David Laroche?
ROSS JEFFRIES: I don’t know him well enough to say anything except that he’s a damn good interviewer. I’ve really enjoyed the interview. He has asked fantastic questions. He’s demonstrated that he’s intelligent enough to understand my rambling. Not everyone is intelligent enough to understand my rambling.