David Laroche : Hello achievers. Today I am with a new amazing and awesome guy. He is Jeff Walker the creator of Product Launch Formula. You have to follow this interview because you will learn a lot about entrepreneurship and how to market your product and how to succeed in this life. He is with me to answer my question. Follow this interview. Hi, Jeff.
Jeff Walker : Hey, how are you doing?
David Laroche : I'm awesome. And you?
Jeff Walker : I'm doing well, very, very well.
David Laroche : Great. I'm very glad to have you here. I love your country and I love your products also.
Jeff Walker : Well, thank you. I love France.
David Laroche : Yeah? Do you love France?
Jeff Walker : Lots of friends from France and I've just been there a few times, well twice.
David Laroche : Yeah, you have to go. It's a beautiful country.
Jeff Walker : Yeah, I know. It's fun. French men and women are crazy in a good sense in my experience, yeah.
David Laroche : Okay. Can you introduce yourself?
Jeff Walker : Sure. So, let's see. I started selling online in 1996. So that was before very many people were. When I started, I was at home taking care of a couple of babies while my wife worked and she supported the family. I had been in the corporate world, I didn't do well in the corporate world. I just didn't fit in there. I couldn't figure it out. So, when my son was a year old, I left. I quit and then my wife, right about that time she got out of graduate school and she was an engineer. She was working, I was home with my son, my young son, he was a year old. Then my daughter was born. And so I was home with two kids and trying to figure it out. And then one day my wife, she was suppose to be working, in the middle of the day she drives up and I looked outside and I see the car drive up and this is weird that she's in the middle of the day. And then she walked in the house and she was just in tears. She was sobbing and she's like, “Jeff, I need you to help support the family in some way. I'm getting up in the dark. I go to work, I come home in the dark, I'm not with my babies. I just need to be with them so I need you to do something.” I was like, “Well…” It was heart-wrenching. You're there as a husband and a father that you're not supporting the family. At that point it'd been years since I made a single penny and I walked away from my career. So I was like, “What can I do?” And that was when I stumbled on this idea of publishing via email. So I had a real interest in the stock market back then. So I started publishing about the stock market. And the first, I put together a newsletter that I would send out twice a month. The first newsletter, I sent to 19 people, 19 email addresses. And actually that overstates that one of them was my second email address, and one was my wife's email address. But it felt better to say 19 than to say 17. Anyways, I started publishing, I started growing through word of mouth. And after I had a few thousand people subscribing, just purely through word of mouth. I didn't even have a website then. It was just in email. This was in 1996. It was hard to build a website back then. And I thought, “Maybe I can sell something to these people.” They're getting my newsletter, they're reading it, they're enjoying it. Maybe they'll buy something from me.” But I'd never sold anything in my life ever before.
David Laroche : Yeah, you were not a salesman.
Jeff Walker : Not at all. Even now you could probably tell I'm not really a slick salesman. I'm like, “How can I sell? Will they even buy from me?” And I was scared to ask them for the order. I was scared to ask them to buy from me. So I started romancing them. I started giving them this great content, more and more and more great content that led up to the sale. And I didn't know it at that time, but I was basically creating this thing we now call the Product Launch Formula and I was giving them pre-launch content. So when the day finally came where I actually put out an offer and we actually made some sales. My first sale was somewhere from Switzerland. I didn't have a shopping cart then. I didn't know how to do anything like that. So he sent me a check from Switzerland. But that first launch we did $1,650 in sales.
David Laroche : Wow.
Jeff Walker : That was huge amount of money for me.
David Laroche : Yeah.
Jeff Walker : And that moment my life changed because I realized, “If I can do this once, I could do it again and I can do it again.”
David Laroche : And more.
Jeff Walker : And I might even get better at it. And that's what happened. The next launch at $6,000 then $8,000 and about…
David Laroche : Were you improving your method every time?
Jeff Walker : Yes, I was learning a lot. The first time you do something it's so much harder than the second. And I improved the process, I improved the actual offer. It just got better. And also I grew a bigger following so I have more people to sell to. So, about 18 months in I did a $34,000 launch, at that point that was more money than I ever made in an entire year. So it was like…and I did it in a week. This is amazing. That was a launch that brought, Mary my wife, home. She retired after that and then I'm supporting the family and it was awesome. And then a few years later, actually in 2005, or 2003 I went to a seminar. At that point, I didn't realize that what I was doing was different, that it was an anomaly. But I started sharing at this marketing event with some other people and they're like, “Wow, you just sold $106,000 in a week? How'd you do that?” And so I started sharing with them, helped some of those. These are some of the people that were known as gurus then and now. Eventually they convinced me to start teaching how to do these launches. And in 2005, I created the Product Launch Formula, started teaching. Now I've had over 10,000 students go through the program. I've sold personally $20 million of that product.
David Laroche : Amazing.
Jeff Walker : But more amazing, more impressive is… Well, thank you. But my students and clients have done over $500 million in product launches. And it all started with $1,650 launch when I was at home taking care of a couple of babies.
David Laroche : And how did you organize your ideas? Because you made something by yourself and sometimes it's not easy to extract to yourself and help others to do the same.
Jeff Walker : Yeah, that's an amazing question. So I have this process I call the Seed Launch. And this is a launch that you can do if you don't have a list or you don't have a product. And basically what you do is you put together an offer, a basic offer for people to buy this product and the product is going to be a series of tele-seminars or webinars. So, say you have a process you wanted to teach, and you make the offer, you go through a little launch process for a little launch sequence. And the offer is, “I'm going to coach you on this.” Maybes it's learning how to play guitar. “I'm going to teach you to learn how to play guitar and it's going to be a series of five webinars.” And then what you do is after you get a certain number of people to buy the best number is…if you can have at least 30 people buy your product, then what you do is before the first webinar, you would send them to a survey and the survey says, “Okay…”
David Laroche : What do you need?
Jeff Walker : Yeah. Our first class, our first webinar is going to be how to strum the guitar. What is your number one most burning question about how to strum the guitar? So then you get all that feedback, you just go through it and you take the top 10, 12, 15 questions, you organize them in a logical fashion and then you just answer the questions. And the beautiful thing about this… And then you repeat it. After that first tele-seminar or webinar, you would send a survey out to the people in the program and you say, “Do you have any additional questions about how to strum a guitar?” And so it's the first question. The second question is, “On our next call, I'm going to teach you how to play the E chord. And what's your most burning question about playing the E chord?” And you do that for each call and you record everything of course.
David Laroche : Yes.
Jeff Walker : And you get it transcribed but what you've done is you've created a product that's perfectly tuned to what your market needs and what your market wants.
David Laroche : Okay. So you have a lot of questions, the questions they ask and what you think they want.
Jeff Walker : Exactly.
David Laroche : And do you think it's important for your first project to build the kind of system or process. Like I believe that David Allen, “Gets Things Done, ” has a great success because he has the ability to build a method, a system and how can we use 100 questions to build a system?
Jeff Walker : Well, and this has been my experience and my learning in learning to be a teacher and learning to be a leader. But also in helping so many thousands of people do it is that none of us are born teachers. Especially, like, if you're a great guitar player, you don't know how to teach, right? You know how to play the guitar. So you have to learn how to teach. You have to learn how to build those systems. So some of us are just naturally gifted, that we can just create those frameworks ourselves. But my experience, most people it's more of an iterative process where I teach this the first time and it's not going to be great, but I answer all those questions. Now, I've got this recordings but I could step away and I can look at the big picture, “What can I do better? What can I do differently? How can I turn this into a system? How can I make this just a question and answer?” And then you actually, when you have people take your material and take it out into the world, then bring it back to you. One of the things I'm big about is staying in contact with my Product Launch Formula owners and they often will report back to me what they've done. So, there's a time with this Product Launch Formula where I might know 10% more than the other people in my market about launches. But now that I've had 10,000 people go through the process and so many of them come back to me and report back with their findings and report back, or just come back with questions it's made me so much better because I've got those students and they're… I mean, even if we're genius level, none of us is genius as 100 of our students are. So they're the ones that pulled the system. This has been my experience, they pull it out of me. You just have to make sure that in your teaching, you're very accepting of them and other questions, you're welcoming of their questions, you're looking for their questions, you're looking for their findings. And that's how it's worked for me and frankly, that's how I teach people to do it.
David Laroche : You just gave a lot of keys. It's very interesting because you don't try to have the perfect system to take actions, you take action now and you learn from your action not only with your self but also in asking people to give you feedback, right? And you take action, improve yourself, take action, improve yourself. And you build your system, is this right?
Jeff Walker : Absolutely. There's a quote and I'm not going to get it perfect.
David Laroche : It's okay.
Jeff Walker : It was from General George S. Patton who freed France. He was the leader of the US Army that just went right through in World War II and he had a quote that, it was something along the lines of “An imperfect plan violently executed today is way better than a perfect plan executed two weeks from now.” So yeah, especially in our kind of businesses, there's so many places where people could say, “I don't know exactly how to do that. I'm going to figure that out and I'm going to get that perfect before I do something.” You've got to avoid that. And I don't know about you, I am a perfectionist. I have that tendency and a lot of us in this business are like that and it holds you back. I think about the impact I make out in the world, the people I help and I can't help them if my product is sitting on the shelf not released.
David Laroche : Yeah. So if you focus on people, you see that it's better to add value in this form in comparison to add maybe value in the future perfectly?
Jeff Walker : Yeah. And perfect never happens.
David Laroche : Yeah, also. Thank you. You have a lot of clients, customers. What are the common factors of your best clients?
Jeff Walker : Wow, that's a good question. I'm not sure I've been asked that one. I think the best… I think one of the common things is they err on the side of action versus perfection and it's interesting we just talked about this but they're instead of “ready, fire, aim,” they're a “ready, aim, fire.” Did I say it right? Instead of “ready, aim, fire,” they are “ready, fire, aim.” There we go. Can we edit that one? We might have to… Yeah, instead of “ready, fire…” and sometimes I'm “ready, fire, fire,” no. Geez! I'm ready, aim, aim, aim, aim and then fire. They are always going to act. They're just going to take that action.
David Laroche : So they learn, they act, right?
Jeff Walker : Yeah, or they learn 50% and they act. And all my best ones are like that. Susan Garrett, she bought my product, she didn't tell her husband about buying it. She wanted to make enough money to pay before the credit card bill came.
David Laroche : I love that.
Jeff Walker : Yeah. And she did, she did $27,000 before the credit card bill came in in a launch. And it was like, she didn't know…she had no tech skills, she just did it. And Will Hamilton, the same thing. He borrowed money from his dad so he had to pay it back real quick and he just, boom, did a launch before…10% of my program he's just like “Okay, I saw what Jeff did, I'm doing it and I'll figure…” And those are the best launch? No. His launches have all gotten way better. This last launch did 10 times what that first one did but the first one was really good. And so again and again, it's that bias towards action, the bias.
David Laroche : So it's the first common factor. Do you see other common factor?
Jeff Walker : What my methodology is all about is providing value, providing value before you ask for the sale. So, you're just building a relationship, you're giving great value, value, value. And the people that really take that to heart and really provide true value out into the world before they ask for the sale, that's a huge one. I have this big long story, I'm not going to share it because it's long, but I call it the abundance juice. They have this abundance mentality where they're just going to give and yeah, it's going to lead into a sale, but they're going to give first and it's going to come back to them. So there's a real bias towards that abundance juice.
David Laroche : Okay, so give and a true gift. Do you see a third point?
Jeff Walker : This is one to the people that achieve the highest levels. The more successful you become and probably in anything but certainly in business, the more important opportunity costs becomes. In fact, once you achieve some level of success, it's the most important thing there is in business. So by opportunity cost, what I mean is anytime you work on a project, take something on, come out with a product, doing a launch, whatever, there is a cost in that. There's other things you can't be doing.
David Laroche : I love that.
Jeff Walker : So, it's a fundamental business practice…
David Laroche : Can you explain more? Because I think it's a very important thing.
Jeff Walker : Well, here I'll give you a metaphor. This is my friend, Dean Graziosi who gave me this. He said, “I think about myself sitting in my office and I got this great library of bookshelves behind me of all these great books I have. And someone walks into my office and then he say, ‘I have the greatest book ever. You've got to read this book. Here you go, Dean.'” When he looks at it, he's like, “If I take this book, I have to take one of those other books off my bookshelf and throw it away.” And it's like that's what, doing this interview. For me…
David Laroche : It's a cost.
Jeff Walker : It's a cost. And it's like there is other things I could be doing. So, in your business, as you have more success, the opportunity cost increases because for me, like $1,650 was great. It changed my life. That was the most important launch I've ever done. But, now I've done 12, 13, 14 launches that I've done at least a million dollars or more.
David Laroche : Yes, so your time cost…
Jeff Walker : Your time becomes more valuable, yeah.
David Laroche : Yeah.
Jeff Walker : So, if there's a great project where, “Boy, this is going to be fun to create this product. I could easily sell it. I would love doing this product and it would make $50,000 for me, ” I can't even think about that. I have to think about the projects that are going to make a million dollars. And of course it's not just money, it's not just…
David Laroche : So how do you choose… ?
Jeff Walker : Well, that's a tough question. So, for everyone it's different. I mean, I have certain things that I look at. I'm like if I look at first I'm at the point now in my business where I have to enjoy it. So is this project going to be fun? Am I going to enjoy it?
David Laroche : Okay, so you have to know your value before?
Jeff Walker : Yeah. So that's one. Am I going to learn anything? I have a huge value around learning. So if I do this, am I going to learn anything? That's a big one. Then another one is money. Is it a high likelihood I'm going to make the kind of money I need to make? Because I've got a team now, I've got costs. And then the finally one is, is there a strategic component to it? In other words, is it leverage? To potentially leverage in the long run? So, I mean it's okay if we be like completely bluntly… Like, so I'm doing an interview with you, okay?
David Laroche : So it's amazing. If you're okay, how did you choose to say yes?
Jeff Walker : So that's exactly, so let's look at this. You're not paying me a penny. I'm not making any money. It fails on that one, okay. Is it going to be fun? I didn't know one way or another. I heard good things about you from people that I think very highly of, okay. So who knows on fun, it's a lot. Am I going to learn anything? I've done a lot of interviews, who knows? Is there a strategic component to it? Possibly. You're clearly creating some real leverage in your life. You're getting exposure for people. I have a lot of clients in France. I have a lot of very high-end clients in France. And I know you're getting global. Obviously…
David Laroche : Yeah, of course, of course.
Jeff Walker : Yeah. But you certainly have leverage in France. So it looks like strategically, okay. None of those factors do you know for sure.
David Laroche : Yeah.
Jeff Walker : But that's how I look at them. And everyone might have different factors. And for some people, some factors might be more important than the others. When I started out, when I did that first launch, I didn't care about fun. I just wanted to make some money and try to support the family. I was desperate, right?
David Laroche : Yeah, I understand that.
Jeff Walker : So, it evolves. So everyone's in a different place and they might measure those different. And there might be people that have other things on there that aren't in my four.
David Laroche : And let's imagine that Sebastian, for example, said to me “You know, Jeff loves to learn.” How can I do before to see you to say you that you will learn something? How can I do?
Jeff Walker : So, I'm not sure I understand it.
David Laroche : Let's imagine that before to ask you for an interview…
Jeff Walker : Right, when you were trying to convince me for the interview.
David Laroche : I knew that it's about for you to learn.
Jeff Walker : So you researched and you went and talked to Sebastian who I know Sebastian very, very well. He has been in my program, my highest and mastermind for four years. And so you went to Sebastian and said, “Okay, I'm going to try to wrangle Jeff in doing an interview. It's not going to be easy. He doesn't return my emails, I'm trying everything. So what's the leverage point?” And Sebastian said, “Well, he loves to learn.” So it's very smart of you. I mean, you've obviously accomplished a lot, that's the way you have to think if you're going to accomplish stuff. It's like, “Okay, what's the lever I can use?” So Sebastian said learning. So then you're thinking, “Okay, he loves learning. How can I make him think he's going to learn something?” Is that the question?
David Laroche : Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Walker : I don't know. I mean, it's like… Yeah, I don't know. It's like, why am I here? – For example, you learn something about the lights but how can I know that you don't know something? – Right, right. I think when I look at like how you pursued me and was it …, working with you was trying to convince me. For one, I need it to be simple and easy. And I live out in the mountains in Colorado and I don't like to travel for business. I'm not about to fly some place to go have an interview.
David Laroche : Sebastian say me that.
Jeff Walker : He told you I was… Yeah, he's right there. There's no way I'm traveling. But then when I learned you're going to be here, then I looked, “Okay, what is my true cost here?”
David Laroche : It's lower.
Jeff Walker : Yeah, it's much lower. And I think basically you pursued it the way you needed to, and the intelligent way was by playing on one of the strategic, the long term, “I could potentially give you big exposure.” Another thing, too frankly is in my… I'm a little older than you are.
David Laroche : Yeah, a little bit.
Jeff Walker : I love that, I think my son is about your age, actually. The one that was a baby when I started my business.
David Laroche : I'm 25 today. It's my birthday.
Jeff Walker : Oh, okay. Well, my son is 24 so yeah. So, we have established that I'm older than you now. But one of the things I personally, and I don't know how useful this is for people at home, I have always focused on supporting young people and the young up-and-comers in this industry. It's always been something I overtly, intentionally done. And from a mentoring standpoint, from creating an impact because that's really the bottom line. I mean, I've got this great business, great lifestyle. I make a lot of money and the most important thing is the impact I make. So I just see that as one way of mentoring young people, and plus the other people that are going to take care of me when I'm 70 years old and have a need… Like, “Can you send an email for me, ” or something. So I've always focused on supporting young, up and coming entrepreneurs and you've gotten into that.
David Laroche : So what could be your message directly to youth to achieve what they want to achieve?
Jeff Walker : And this if for young entrepreneurs? Or young… ?
David Laroche : Yeah, young entrepreneurs, let's do that.
Jeff Walker : So, what I would say is first of all, it's awesome to be young. I mean, I started my business when I was 35 years old. So to do it when you're young is just absolutely amazing. I don't want to be too trivial but Napoleon Hill said, “If you can think it and you can conceive it and you can see that as a possibility, then you can achieve it.”
David Laroche : I love that.
Jeff Walker : And I truly believe that. We had nothing when I started this business and now it does millions of dollars of sales. I have this full team. I was able to support this team. We're able to just have this incredible lifestyle for my family. But it is, at the end of the day, being an entrepreneur is about providing value.
David Laroche : To others.
Jeff Walker : There's just no way… You know, you can fool people for a short period of time, but in the long term you get paid, compensated to create value. And then the other thing is if you're going to be an entrepreneur, you have to be a leader. You absolutely…
David Laroche : What is a leader for you?
Jeff Walker : A pathfinder.
David Laroche : Okay.
Jeff Walker : Someone who lives congruently.
David Laroche : Okay.
Jeff Walker : Someone who leads by example.
David Laroche : Inspire people.
Jeff Walker : Absolutely. This world, it needs more inspiration and aspiration and it needs the tools and all the stuff behind it, but you have to inspire and you have to be a learner, too. You have to learn.
David Laroche : How can they learn? By books?
Jeff Walker : Well, the bigger meta-picture of it is by…the thing that stops learning is “I already knew that.” That attitude of “I knew that,” or “I disagree,” going into a situation saying, looking for reasons to disagree. And then being defensive. When you're defensive about what you learn or about what you do or what you eat or what you wear, that just shuts off all learning. So you have to stay open, you've got to turn off that filter of “I already knew that.” I am here at Experts Academy for a Brendon Burchard's event. I just was on stage speaking. I've been here before, I've been here several times. But I'll still be in that room learning. I'll still listen to Brendon, I'll still listen to the other speakers. And I'll still meet people and ask them about their business because you can never stop learning.
David Laroche : Yeah, and sometimes you can learn the same thing but it's the right time so you can apply it.
Jeff Walker : Absolutely. I have got a lot of, some big adventure, outdoor adventure, white-water kayaking, skiing… I'm blanking on them, but just all kinds. I live out in the mountains in Colorado, it's incredible.
David Laroche : I love Colorado.
Jeff Walker : Yeah?
David Laroche : It was my first time in the USA it was in Colorado.
Jeff Walker : Nice.
David Laroche : Nice time in, just next to Denver, the city was… I forget.
Jeff Walker : Golden? Aberdeen?
David Laroche : Boulder?
Jeff Walker : Boulder, yeah. Boulder's nice. So I wanted to do white-water kayaking. Like I've actually paddled my kayak off waterfalls and stuff so I'm fairly accomplished. But when you're a kayaker, one of the great things about it is you can self-rescue. So if your boat gets knocked over you can roll back up. You can roll the boat up and so it's wonderful because then if you get in trouble, you can just rescue yourself in most situations. But, when you learn to kayak, you need to learn to roll and that means the boat is upside down and you're not breathing, inherently a stressful situation and you have to do this, reach up. Once you know how to do it it's like riding a bike. It's not that hard but the learning of it is, there is some time spent learning and flailing and having troubles. And I know when I was learning, trying to learning, people they'd give me all this coaching and you'd still fail and fail and fail and then one person said one thing. It was really no different from all the other advice but he just said it in a slightly different way and when I heard that, I was like, “Oh.” So what you said was exactly right. It's like, you never know exactly when you're going to hear the one thing that makes all the difference and it could be very similar.
David Laroche : One sentence.
Jeff Walker : Yeah, exactly. Learning to ski, that's another. I'm a big skier. And like many skiers, my downfall is I get my weight back on my skis and it's hard to ski when you want to be forward on your skis. And people are always saying, “Think I got to be forward, I got to be forward.” And then one person said, “Press your shins against the front of the boots.” And that was all I had to do. It's like all of a sudden, I'm forward. So there's a lot of ways to say “keep your weight forward, ” but that one person… And actually it wasn't even an instructor. It was my wife and she's barely an intermediate skier, but the instructor told her that and she said, “My instructor said push your shins against the front of your boots, ” and it's like…and my skiing changed in an instant. So, that's another thing. Any of us can change our life in an instant, we can do it. And it could just take a little thing like that. – I love that also. I have an amazing question for you. I love this question. So, according to you, how to become a loser? Let's imagine that I have a training to help people to become a loser. What could be the key factors of a loser according to you?
David Laroche : And this is assuming being a loser is a bad thing?
Jeff Walker : Yeah.
David Laroche : Okay.
Jeff Walker : But, I don't know…
David Laroche : Well, I mean because one of the keys to business is failing fast so you could almost say a failure is like a loss because the thing is it gets back not being a perfectionist to getting stuff out there is to fail fast.
Jeff Walker : So to be a loser you have to avoid failures?
David Laroche : Exactly. And I do think that is a key to being a loser. This is a good question, it is a good question. So, I think that when you look at someone, one of the greatest predictors of whether they'll have success or not, whether they'll be a loser or not, is when they look at someone else, someone that's having success, do they take inspiration from that or do they try to find ways to belittle them. They would find reasons why that person's having…they were born with this, or they're good looking or they have a family in his background.
Jeff Walker : The right size.
David Laroche : Yeah, she's got curly hair or whatever. Do you look and try to find, “Yeah, well they're having success but the reason they're in heaven and I'm not is because of this reason.” Or you look at someone and say, “Wow, that person is having success. That is so freaking awesome and I want to be like them and I'm going to try to emulate them.”
Jeff Walker : Okay. So….
David Laroche : And the next step is even. So the next step is go even beyond that and find someone who has more challenges than you that is having success. Someone who has started with less and just for whatever reason they've got a disability or whatever, they've got additional challenges and if you go out looking for those people to be inspirations for you, that's huge.
Jeff Walker : Yeah, it's huge. I met some people with handicap and I learned a lot from them to achieve what I want.
David Laroche : Yeah.
Jeff Walker : And to go to the next step.
David Laroche : And so it's awesome that you went and sought that out. To me, that's one of the greatest predictors of success. Do you look at someone who's having success and find the reasons why it won't work for you? Or do you find the reasons to take inspiration from it? – Great. In your methods, you talk about the leverage of persuasion. You list a lot of leverage. So can you share us some leverage?
Jeff Walker : Yes. So like one of the things I teach is these mental triggers. And they are things that are in our brains all of us that they influence us, they cause us to act. It's things like reciprocity. If we give something to someone, they want to give something back. Authority. If you're perceived as an authority, if you're a doctor in a white coat, then you're going to be more influential. Community. If you perceive yourself as being in a community, you'll act like you think the people in the community are supposed to act. Social proof. If we see a bunch of other people doing…
David Laroche : Like the restaurant.
Jeff Walker : Restaurant. Or like social media. I mean, people come to your channel, he's got 100,000 views on this video, wow. I mean, I remember I saw a video recently. There's like three and a half million views on this view and it was just this guy playing guitar in the street. I'm like, “What's up?” I mean, normally the first 15 seconds weren't that interesting but I'm like, “I'm going to watch this because there's three and a half million views.” And it turned out to be a great video, so that's social proof. So all those different mental triggers and there's more. Anticipation is one that I teach at Product Launch Formula, just getting people pulled into a ritual and an event, very powerful. And all those mental triggers are great way to create influence on other people.
David Laroche : Yeah, I love that. And I would like to ask you something because when I meet people, I see two mind sets. Some people say to me, “You add only value, you don't use any persuasion and the people will buy your products.” And I have other people who say to me, “Okay, you add value but you have to use leverage and things to send more.” What do you think about that?
Jeff Walker : So some people are saying “I'm having success without using it.” And other people are saying…
David Laroche : You have to use it.
Jeff Walker : Yeah. Well, I mean, do you want to leave half the sales on the table? I mean, do they have that phrase in French? It's like… Yeah, you could make 50,000 or you could make a 100,000 which do you want?
David Laroche : Okay.
Jeff Walker : I mean, you will do better if you use those triggers, if you understand psychology, if you understand how people, how their brains work. And I mean, it's like… And some people they feel squeamish about it where they're like, “I don't know. I don't want to do that.” I'm like, “Are you married? Do you ever have a girlfriend or a boyfriend?” It's like, we use those triggers everywhere in our life. When we are at a restaurant and we want to get the waiter to come over to us, no matter what we're doing at any point, we're always using those triggers. When we go into work and we want to ask our boss for a raise, no matter what we're doing at any point, we're always selling ourselves. You have to sell yourself and the question is do you want to do it effectively or do you want to do it ineffectively?
David Laroche : I can imagine that when you started to use those triggers and sell a lot, you have some people who criticize you. How did you overcome all these criticism?
Jeff Walker : That's one a lot of people struggle with and I, thankfully, just haven't.
David Laroche : Okay, perfect.
Jeff Walker : The thing is, no one ever builds statues for critics. There is no statues out there for critics. Everyone can be a critic, especially now in social media people are going to flame you. I mean, there are people that criticized Mother Theresa, all kinds of people criticized Gandhi. Christ, I mean, Jesus Christ they crucified him, right? Martin Luther King, shot to death. So the greatest leaders ever, the greatest givers ever they got criticized. So I mean, if I get criticized, whatever.
David Laroche : It's a consequence of building great things.
Jeff Walker : Yeah. If you're there to play big…
David Laroche : You have to embrace it.
Jeff Walker : Right, you do. And actually I just heard Brendon say this, he's like, “I just had someone…” I heard him say this a couple of hours ago. He's like, “In one of my videos, I just had someone put ‘#douchebag. ‘” He's like, “Yes, I have arrived.” I mean, if you're going to play big, you're going to get people that aren't going to love you and that's fine. In fact, part of your marketing is to repel the people you don't want and attract the people that you want. There's people that are perfect clients for me, there's people that aren't perfect clients for me. I want the people that are perfect. My life is a lot better when I have the clients that are perfect for me. I have this business coach, Dan Sullivan and he gave me this line, he said, “The clients you want are the people that you want to be a hero to.” The people you are going to be a hero to. The other people? Forget them. You don't need any of those clients. If you let someone else criticize you that you don't know, you have now given up, you've abdicated your mental state. You've outsourced your mental state to someone. There's someone on YouTube making a comment about me, a negative comment about me. If I let that affect me, this person I don't even know, it's Joebob372@gmail or whatever. If I'm going to let him affect my mental state, I'm not going to get very far.
David Laroche : Yeah.
Jeff Walker : You can't give that power especially to someone you don't know. I mean, your spouse, your kids, your parents, okay. They're people that…their opinion should matter.
David Laroche : You care about.
Jeff Walker : But someone you don't know? You're going to let them control your mental state? In their business…
David Laroche : So they are an opportunity to help you to build a strong mental state?
Jeff Walker : Absolutely.
David Laroche : Right. I love that. You give a lot of content in your Product Launch Formula. And I would like to know when you build a project, is there some reason that too much content could be a bad thing in your project?
Jeff Walker : Yeah. Absolutely. This is something… So I'm now on PLF four. It's the fourth complete… It's actually the fifth if you count the very first one. So I've remade the course five times. And one of the things…
David Laroche : It's great.
Jeff Walker : Thank you. One of the things I've focused on the last, really with 3.0 and 4.0, was the learning experience and making it, condensing it, trying to cut the number of hours that's actually in the product that's required at that time.
David Laroche :To move, okay.
Jeff Walker : Yeah. I focused on making videos short so people could, boom! So videos are usually 8, 10 minutes long instead of… In the old version, it was 50-minute videos. No one wants to watch a 50-minute video. We did things like I'd mix up, there's full motion video, there's screen capture video. Every module, I have an introduction and a conclusion that tells people what they're going to learn and what they learned. Did a lot of things around that to make it easier to consume a product. When I go out into the market, I don't… – So your content is a product launch?
David Laroche : Yeah. I mean, it's not how I sold it. I didn't go out to the market… I probably just messed the audio up. I didn't go out into the market and say, “Buy my new product. I made the video shorter.” That's not how I sold it. That's not going to be a great sales piece, but it's important. I'd like to say, you sell what people want and you give them what they need. A lot of people, when you think about it, it's like someone needs to lose weight, it's like, “Okay, eat less food and exercise more.” Well, you're going to say, “Well, take this magic thing and put this magic thing over here and do this magic thing,” and that's what you're going to sell. And then when they get your program, you learn to do those magic things but then you also say, “Oh, by the way, this is how you exercise more. This is how you eat less. And this is how we're going to support you.” In any case I got a bit side-tracked, but in Product Launch Formula, in all your teaching… Ten years ago, it was fashionable to create what they called “thud” factor. Like give people really big thing, like a big box of stuff. But no one wants that anymore.
Jeff Walker : Yeah.
David Laroche : If it was just a matter of watching videos, you can watch as many videos as you want on YouTube. It's being concise and really being focused and giving people the full, just a great learning experience.
Jeff Walker : Okay. So, I would like to add a small question. If your videos are more short and you give a lot of content freely. How do you do to explain why something is paid, it's not free? For example, I give a lot of content; interviews, a lot of videos. And sometimes people ask me why I have to buy you something because you give so much.
David Laroche : Right. Well, I mean it's been my experience that the clients that you really want, the best clients, they are going… I mean they're going to look at your stuff and say, “Well, that is amazing. I love your stuff. If he's giving this much away for free, I can't imagine how awesome it is if I buy his paid product.” That's been how it's worked for me, the best clients are the ones that want more and they're going to step up and purchase more. And you know, we're in a direct marketing business, at the end of the day if 2 people out of 100 buy your product, you can do really well. Part of it like when I put out free content, I know most people aren't going to buy the product but that's fine. It's like why not just create the most value out in the world, even though it's massive value for the people that don't buy the product because in the end, I know I'm going to attract the perfect clients, they're going to come in and they're going to buy my stuff. And they're just going to move up into higher and higher levels. Because I have products that go up to $34,000 a year. And those programs are completely full with a waiting list. So, I give you tons of free stuff and then I've got more expensive stuff then I've got more expensive.
Jeff Walker : Yeah, for everyone.
David Laroche : Yeah. It's great.
– I mean, the thing you don't want to be in this market is trying to compete on price. The only people that win competing on prices are like Walmart. And you don't want to be competing against Walmart.
David Laroche : So it was an amazing interview. I would like to thank you very much.
Jeff Walker : You're welcome.
David Laroche : Yeah, it was great.
Jeff Walker : Yeah, there was some good questions.