Transcript of the interview of David Gruder
David Laroche: I would like to take an example, for example you assume that someone who have build a new restaurant, it is new so nobody knows this restaurant and he decided for example to pay some people to, its well-known that when you enter the restaurant if its empty, you don’t want to come, okay? and if its full you want to come. So it is low of influence, and what do you think about the fact that you can pay people to build these first clients? Can we do that with integrity? I have to explain, why I am asking you that? We are meeting lot of different people, we are meeting people about persuasion, negotiations, sales and I believe a lot in power of communication in persuasions, but it’s very hard for me in marketing or so to know when I am lying to myself because I very want to succeed and when I do the right things, do you understand and yeah so I take the example of restaurant, because it’s not so bad to do that, if the food is good but yeah.
David Gruder: When I hire someone to design an advertisement that I want to print in a newspaper or magazine, or show on television, I am paying someone to create a perception about me. If I am hiring people to eat at my restaurant in order to create a perception, I am hiring people to create a perception about me. So, what has for me less to do with the behaviour and more to do with the intention behind the behaviour. You see there are two forms of creating consent with the public, consent meaning the public says yes to something, and one way is through informed consent, and the other way is through manufactured consent. Manufactured consent is the prevailing strategy for social engineering. It was designed and given that term almost 100 years ago now by the father of modern public relations actually, whose name was Edward Bernese, Bernese not spelled like a sauce, but spelled Berneys and what Berneys did was he developed a set of strategies for manipulating the public, manipulating public opinion to support products, services, causes for candidates, while thinking they were doing that at their own free will, but where they had been propagandised or manipulated into providing that support. That is manufactured consent, that’s creating yes, in the mind of somebody that wouldn’t have come to yes on their own.
Informed consent in the restaurant for example, looks like this. The restaurant owner hires people to eat in restaurant in order to draw people in to have an experience first-hand themselves of the food that’s in that restaurant and if what that person is providing, with what that restaurant owner is providing, is truly helpful, high quality food prepared in a delicious way and served in an enjoyable atmosphere, then the only purpose that hiring people to eat in the restaurant would have served is the purpose of helping the public discover that there is something they were looking for in the first place in this restaurant when they might not have chosen to come in otherwise. That’s informed consent because all people needed was an opportunity to find that what they were looking for was here in this restaurant.
Now contrast that with what oh! Let’s say coco-cola does. This is going to get me in some trouble, but coco-cola, I will say at the front end I happened to like the taste of coco-cola, but what coca cola selves isn’t coca cola. It is true value and its perceiving value of completely disconnected in the restaurant and I will say why in a second. In the restaurant example we are talking about where the food is good and its helpful and people have a good experience eating there, there is alignment between the true value of eating at that restaurant and the perceived value that there is a value there right. With coca cola there is a complete divorce between the two. What coca-cola is selling is happiness and peace in the world and all kinds of warm fuzzy feeling and special feelings and all of that stuff and why is coca cola selling that? because they need to manipulate people in to drinking something that has incredibly such high sugar content, that if we have the sugar directly in to our mouth we will get nauseous, we would want to through a walk and has such high salt content in order to make us thirsty, so that we drink more and more and more of it. So that the more we drink of this high sugar fake food the higher risk we are at the developing diabetes and becoming overweight and all of those things. So the true value of coca cola is illness. The perceived value of the coca cola according to its ad campaign is happiness and joy that is lack of integrity. The restaurant example the way that I described it is an example of real integrity; it all depends on the motivation.
David Laroche: Yeah, because I see 2 things what you are seeing, the first one where is example of the restaurant, you attract the clients, but he has the opportunity to say yes or no after if you doesn’t, like.
David Gruder: Yes that’s informed consent.
David Laroche: Yeah and the second thing that you are saying that they attract people in respecting as value and because they are doing a great thing for the clients right. So it’s a huge insight for me. You helped me a lot you anything because it was, I was in trouble with that it is manipulation persuasion, oh! I don’t know, yeah.
David Gruder: It's all persuasion, marketing is about persuasion, but persuasion is done in a way that informs people so that they can make whatever the right choice is for them that to me is ethical and when persuasion is used to manipulate people into making the decision that the person doing the selling wants them to make, regardless whether it’s good for the consumer that to me is unethical.
David Laroche: So the last question we have to ask is, is my service or my project is good for my clients, if I am doing things to have them to say yes is it okay for me that‘s right?
David Gruder: Yes.
David Laroche: Okay yes right answer.